"Like Haig on the Somme, we’ll bleed to death in Afghanistan" - U2 Feedback

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Old 11-29-2008, 10:42 PM   #1
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"Like Haig on the Somme, we’ll bleed to death in Afghanistan"

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We must pull our troops out of Afghanistan. It is no good waiting for the Americans to lift us off this hook.

They will leave, too, in the end, but they do not know it yet.
It takes quite a nerve for us to claim we are fighting terror and promoting civilisation in Afghanistan, when we have been beaten hollow by the IRA in Ulster, when we cannot prevent deaths like that of ‘Baby P’, and our own poorer zones are lawless wastelands of disorder and violence, guns and knives, long abandoned by authority.
In fact it is this arrogant fantasy that we have some sort of right, as a ‘civilised’ country, to visit our non-existent wisdom and our devalued ‘democracy’ on Afghanistan that infuriates me most of all about this futile adventure.
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Barack Obama – like all Left-wing US Presidents – will need to prove how ‘tough’ he is quite early on, and also hopes to win over many of the neo-Cons who backed the ‘war on terror’.

And Mr Obama’s most likely way of showing off will be to step up the futile Afghan conflict, since it is still – absurdly – popular and widely believed to have a defined purpose. Probably he will make more and more raids into Pakistan, a country already stumbling around in wounded circles.

This whole septic area is the direct legacy of ill-informed, short-term meddling by outside powers, from our own invention of the nonsensical ‘Durand Line’ border which divides Pakistan from Afghanistan in the wrong place, to our shameful, ill-prepared panic scuttle from India 60 years ago, to more recent Russian and then Western interventions in Afghan affairs.

If this is the outcome of well-meaning intervention, surely neglect can only be better?
(From Chris Hitchens' right wing brother, Peter Hitchens)
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Old 11-30-2008, 12:02 AM   #2
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"Neglect can only be better?"

Can't people wait for a proper handoff when Afghanistan can run its own military?
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Old 11-30-2008, 12:06 AM   #3
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Can't people wait for a proper handoff when Afghanistan can run its own military?
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Old 11-30-2008, 02:22 AM   #4
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Can't people wait for a proper handoff when Afghanistan can run its own military?
And here I thought you liked small government, saving, and were against deficit spending...

How many of my tax dollars will it take to get Afghanistan's military running on it's own?
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Old 11-30-2008, 10:38 AM   #5
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And here I thought you liked small government, saving, and were against deficit spending...

How many of my tax dollars will it take to get Afghanistan's military running on it's own?
If Bush didn't plow into education and health spending the war costs wouldn't be so bad.

The bailouts cost way more than the both wars.

Spending money on military sucks but being a wimp getting bullied is even worse. I don't like wars either but look at WWII and tell me if pacifism works.

If Barack Obama can find lots of entitlement cuts to pay for the completion of the handover it will be good.

That's one thing Obama said well was that wars are hard to keep up with bad finances. If the massive bailouts continue to the highest degree they will be forced to pull out if China decides to sell its bonds. I don't see how dangers will stay the same or decrease from a quick pull out.

The best way IMO would be to freeze entitlement spending and cut entitlement spending and earmarks until there is a balanced budget over the years and keep the war funded until all regions of Iraq and Afghanistan are handed over.

I mean what do you support? In dealing with terrorists or dictators what should America do when it gets attacked or its allies? Should we bomb and run away? Should we do nothing? What's the proper response in your opinion?

If Pakistan harbors terrorists and chooses to do nothing about it what would be the appropriate response in your mind? I'm all ears.
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Old 11-30-2008, 11:44 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post

If Pakistan harbors terrorists and chooses to do nothing about it what would be the appropriate response in your mind? I'm all ears.
Pakistan gets a LOT of Us Financial aid, we can start with that.

Also, a lot of Pakistani students come to the US to study, we can put a stop to that too.

We can hurt Pakistan financially a lot more than we'd be willing to do militarily.
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Old 11-30-2008, 01:49 PM   #7
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YouTube - Psychopath Channel4 - [part1]

YouTube - Psychopath Channel4 - [part2]

YouTube - Psychopath Channel4 - [part3]

YouTube - Psychopath Channel4 - [part4]

YouTube - Psychopath Channel4 - [part5]

YouTube - Egomania - Documentary [part 1]

YouTube - Egomania - Documentary [part 2]

YouTube - Egomania - Documentary [part 3]

YouTube - Egomania - Documentary [part 4]

YouTube - Egomania - Documentary [part 5]

YouTube - A CLOCKWORK ORANGE!! - FULL SCENE!

YouTube - Afghan Girls Sprayed With Acid For Attending School

With people like this I have little hope that war and human struggles will disappear. Some people just have such enormous drives that economic sanctions don't seem to stop them. Look at North Korea. I wish war could be past history but I don't think I will see that in my life time.

There certainly will be a point when there is no money left to stay in Afghanistan but I don't think we've got to that point yet.

To me the best thing for countries that defend freedom is to have a tough justice system, strong military and as many healthy moral individuals as self-reliant as possible. Entitlement programs should be for those who really can't help themselves. If we shower everyone with entitlement programs and reduce the military it opens up the opportunity for bullies to gain more power with little worry of retaliation. Is it possible for isolationism to be a viable strategy in a world of nuclear weapons and other WMD? Can we trade with countries that hate us? The solutions to these problems just seem so beyond my lifespan.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
If Bush didn't plow into education and health spending the war costs wouldn't be so bad.
Yes, because education and health are horrible things to spend on, let's spend on wars of choice like Iraq...

His education and health programs were horrible, wasted money. But let's not forget the biggest drain, Iraq. Iraq was uneeded, poorly planned, and the "coalition" is weak. So it's just draining us.


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Spending money on military sucks but being a wimp getting bullied is even worse. I don't like wars either but look at WWII and tell me if pacifism works.
Everything is either/ or with you... Do you not understand nuance?

I supported going into Afghanistan, but starting another war while being in Afghanistan, a war you don't need, a war that you don't even understand(Bush didn't even know the inner going-ons of Iraq), and piss poor planned war screwed us.
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:24 PM   #9
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At the moment I'm not seeing any indications that Obama intends to depart radically from the Bush Administration's Afghanistan/Pakistan strategy. I would hope that his future strategy includes retooling aid to Pakistan more towards preferential trade agreements to help their freefalling economy, encouraging Kabul to negotiate with the Afghan Taliban with an eye to weaning them away from both the Pakistani Taliban and al-Qaeda, assisting the Pakistani army in FATA/NWFP through counterinsurgency training support rather than Predator missile strikes, and pressuring Delhi not to reflexively respond to recent and future terrorist strikes by ratcheting up tensions with Islamabad--but those are just hopes. In terms of military aid, Pakistan has a major trump card in the form of 75% of US troop supplies arriving in Afghanistan via Karachi, so there are limits to how punitive Washington is likely to get there. Negotations between the warring factions in Afghanistan as a foundation for future political stability and a stronger Afghan army is a long shot, but it's a better one than the chimera of 'transforming society' through the anemic reconstruction efforts of the terminally inadequate combined NATO/US forces. Ultimately it's fear of al-Qaeda, not commitment to 'democracy,' that's keeping the US in Afghanistan, and there has to be a point past which our presence will hurt that cause more than it helps. I don't think we're there yet, but it will come.
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Yes, because education and health are horrible things to spend on, let's spend on wars of choice like Iraq...

His education and health programs were horrible, wasted money. But let's not forget the biggest drain, Iraq. Iraq was uneeded, poorly planned, and the "coalition" is weak. So it's just draining us.
So what do you advise now? Should Obama ignore the new military pact Bush made for 3 years and leave?

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Everything is either/ or with you... Do you not understand nuance?
I don't see anti-Bush types with lots of nuance either. I believe in supporting something until it's obvious it is a failure. I believe some things like wars can take a long time to see the results and consequences. I prize perserverence and understand that strategies can develop and enhance over time.

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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
I supported going into Afghanistan, but starting another war while being in Afghanistan, a war you don't need, a war that you don't even understand(Bush didn't even know the inner going-ons of Iraq), and piss poor planned war screwed us.
Well good that you supported it but I will reserve judgment on whether it's all screwed when the war is actually over. As mismanaged the tactics were in Iraq in the beginning there has been progress. I don't want to invest so much emotion on it being a failure before it is.

If the handoff goes smoothly and Afghanistan and Iraq turn to dogshit then I'll admit being wrong about the reconstruction. BTW if it turns to dogshit we will still have problems that might require some military action of another kind because as I've shown, psychopaths and narcissitic bullies recuperate and try again. They like to wear you down until you submit to their grandiose visions of themselves.

I've met so many people in office jobs that have mental problems like that and I found I couldn't be too nice because they looked at it as weak and appeasing. They can wear you out. I also needed to control my reactive emotions around them. They push buttons, use fear and intimidation constantly.

The Impact of Narcissism on Leadership and Sustainability

This is a good indication of their thought process and resembles my personal experiences. They don't have your sympathy abilities and don't respect them.

When I look at Chavez, Putin or Ahmadinejad and their "meetings" and "diplomacy" efforts I'm very cynical and skeptical of their value or true intent. It always looks superficial and glib.
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Old 11-30-2008, 06:14 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
I've met so many people in office jobs that have mental problems like that and I found I couldn't be too nice because they looked at it as weak and appeasing. They can wear you out. I also needed to control my reactive emotions around them. They push buttons, use fear and intimidation constantly.

The Impact of Narcissism on Leadership and Sustainability

This is a good indication of their thought process and resembles my personal experiences. They don't have your sympathy abilities and don't respect them.
And you don't see this in Western leaders??
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Old 11-30-2008, 06:19 PM   #12
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C'mon, it's staring you right in the face!

The narcissistic/psychopathic traits you identify - probably quite correctly - in the likes of Chavez are equally present in people like Blair, Bush.

Blair and Bush are or were in charge of much bigger militaries than tinpot dictators like Saddam and that, frankly, makes them MORE dangerous.

Need I mention the 'Bring 'em on!' and 'You're either with us or against us' quotes from Bush and even worse messianic stuff from Blair. Blair was probably even more dangerous because most of the media quite liked him.
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Old 11-30-2008, 06:26 PM   #13
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So what do you advise now? Should Obama ignore the new military pact Bush made for 3 years and leave?
No, I think a staged withdrawal is the only way this will work. I think we need to get them and their money involved in the reconstruction, and if at all possible repair some damaged relationships and get other countries involved in the rebuilding.


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I don't see anti-Bush types with lots of nuance either.
Well labeling me "anti-Bush" doesn't help your argument one bit, and just furthers the appearance of not understanding nuance at all.

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I believe in supporting something until it's obvious it is a failure.
That's great, but it doesn't make a lick of sence whatsoever. If the premise is a failure then there is no waiting til it's obvious? The premise can be wrong and still have an outcome that looks good. When all is said and done it may look like Iraq is a better country, but you have to ask yourself why, at what cost, and who are we to go around nation building at our own will?


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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
I've met so many people in office jobs that have mental problems like that and I found I couldn't be too nice because they looked at it as weak and appeasing. They can wear you out. I also needed to control my reactive emotions around them. They push buttons, use fear and intimidation constantly.

The Impact of Narcissism on Leadership and Sustainability

This is a good indication of their thought process and resembles my personal experiences. They don't have your sympathy abilities and don't respect them.
I really have no idea what you are alluding to here, or what this has to do with the discussion at hand.
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Old 11-30-2008, 06:26 PM   #14
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American forces are operating in some very tough mountainous terrain. Advantage goes to the bad guys.

The U.S. isn't even officially allowed to bring the fight over the Pakistani border, right?

An American troop surge is not the answer in Afghanistan.
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Old 11-30-2008, 06:27 PM   #15
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Sociopathic tendencies are fine in politics because the national interest isn't altruistic, having said that I do think the democratic peace theory co-opted by the neoconservative movement deserves consideration as a model of advancing liberalisation for nationally selfish reasons.

Of course we have no problem with authoritarianism when it delivers a steady flow of resources or cheap goods, which undercuts any practical way of enacting change (not necessarily militarily).
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