Liberal Arts Education.

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first of all i never really post in this section and don't know if this is the correct forum, but i 'm looking for a serious discussion so i thought this might be the place for it

as someone with a useless liberal arts major who wants to teach (and is terrified first of the prospects of getting into a good PHD program - not to mention the subsequent job prospects), i'm wondering about people's opinions on the role of college/university education (and to a lesser extent, high school). there seems to be a trend toward college as more of a "vocational" venture - you get a degree so you can get a job. you're business, pre-law, pre-med, or getting a degree that trains you for a career immediately after graduation (like engineering or something - something with significant real-world application outside of teaching). otherwise, you're wasting your time. which makes perfect sense, especially given the price of US college education. few are fortunate enough to afford $40,000 a year just to "enrich their minds." yet as someone who comes from an academically-oriented family, i was kind of taught that's the point of college. and while i realize something like math might be more "useful" or better for my career options, i am not mathematically-minded in the slightest. so...is there still a place for the liberal arts in college? should we still be encouraging students to major in these subjects when job prospects are so slim? should we value learning for the sake of learning?

my bias in this argument is clear - i found something i love (or at least, am not as bored by compared to everything else ), so i went for it, though i'm definitely beginning to wonder if switching from pre-med to dead language was such a great idea. in fact, i think it was a terrible idea. but at the same time, i feel i am an academically-minded person, not a doctor. i'm a thinker, not a doer. i was raised to value highly intelligence and knowledge, and i don't think intellectual pursuits should be considered "useless." i suppose i have a romantic view of a human spirit enriched by reading and learning (not to sound pretentious - like any college student i spend most of my time just drinking beer and watching The Office or noodling on my guitar or what have you, not reading Pynchon and debating philosophy). obviously i understand there are many more "important" jobs in society, but teachers and professors have been an extremely powerful and positive influence on me, and i don't think they should be undervalued. but i understand the other side - it's hard to justify the existence of any field that is only perpetuated by telling other people that it does in fact exist. so of course funding for these fields gets cut in tough economic climates.

what are your thoughts?

 

[the iron horse]

The Value of a Liberal Arts Education | Richmond Times-Dispatch

 

[Canadiens1131]

I don't think there's anything really new to bring to the table. College is a different value proposition for every student.

I know people with Anthropology degrees, seemingly more toward the "not useful" side of the scale, and they have been able to go do field work in South America or Central America and are generally very interesting people. I know people who studied Finance, have much better jobs, and are generally not very interesting at parties.

For some people, college can be a mind-opening experience, but I think you have to have that curiosity outside of school; it won't provide you that innate ability to want to go out and consume new information about things you don't know.

As an aside, I think the whole tenure-track system is antiquated, and provides for lazy professors more than it provides for the freedom to teach and do research with an assured position. That will have to change in the 21st century, just as the U.S. will have to come to grips with getting its shitty primary and secondary education on track.

 

[Dfit00]

Follow your dreams and do what you love.

 

[Canadiens1131]

And always give 110%.

 

[anitram]

I still think that the point of a college education (at the bachelor level anyway) is to teach you to think critically. This can then be applied to any number of fields.

I studied what interested me for 4 years, and I went to law school later. There is nothing worse to me that this idiotic idea of pre-law. I don't even know what it really means, and I don't think that following that path straight into law school will make you any better of a law student, nevermind a lawyer.

Can't speak for other tracks like pre-med, perhaps they are more useful.

 

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The Value of a Liberal Arts Education | Richmond Times-Dispatch

yeah, that's pretty much how i feel about it.

 

[PhilsFan]

I still think that the point of a college education (at the bachelor level anyway) is to teach you to think critically. This can then be applied to any number of fields.

I studied what interested me for 4 years, and I went to law school later. There is nothing worse to me that this idiotic idea of pre-law. I don't even know what it really means, and I don't think that following that path straight into law school will make you any better of a law student, nevermind a lawyer.

Can't speak for other tracks like pre-med, perhaps they are more useful.

I have a friend in pre-med, it's quite useful to get that background in biology and the like.

 

[Liesje]

I attended and now work full time for a small liberal arts college.

I strongly agree with Martina that at least where I work, being "pre-law" means nothing as far as actually going to law school. First off, I believe we don't currently have any professors that have actually practiced law so it's a tad ironic we have this "pre-law" program with a pre-law advisor that is a political science professor. There's no reason to get a BA in political science or international affairs unless that's really what interests you; it offers no advantage as far as going to law school and actually practicing law. In fact I think students are much more marketable later on with a degree in something else, especially foreign languages. Or, I know a very successful medical malpractice attorney that got a BS in biology, then a masters in physiology. Those things were originally what really interested him and gave him a "niche" as far as practicing law. My cousin is "pre-law" and my uncle is pushing him into taking all the poli sci and int'l affairs courses while I'm encouraging him to keep studying the languages that he likes and already studied through high school.

I think that in certain fields people do not recognize the importance of networking and other opportunities that a college/university offers outside of class lectures and homework. I have a BA in business communications. Obviously this is not a field with a lot of specific technical skills like nursing or engineering. The importance of going through this program for me was not just getting good marks and doing my schoolwork but taking advantage of other opportunities that go with the business program, like getting internships, having dinners with local business owners, job fairs, etc. The degree itself is fairly meaningless but the process of getting it is where people can either take advantage of whatever opportunities their college/program offers or just do whatever schoolwork is required to graduate.

I'm not sure about other liberal arts colleges but where I work, this term actually refers more to the required "core curriculum" than the BA/BS programs offered. I had to take about 2.5 years worth of classes that are required of every student at the college regardless of major/program. This aspect of the liberal arts college I do sometimes take issue with. Some of my core courses were interesting and valuable to me but others were a total waste of time and money (and often I skipped them to put in more hours at work). For example, I was required to take three different PE classes in order to graduate even though I was in the business program and didn't play any sports. I had to take a biology and chemistry lecture plus a lab for both though I was not majoring in a science and most of what we did was repetitive from high school (where I took science, math, and a foreign language for four straight years but was still required to take science and math in college). Unfortunately, there were a lot of core courses that were repeating what I took in high school, and the college courses were some times dumbed down from what I took in high school. The core curriculum is what comes to mind when I hear "liberal arts".

 

[HBK-79]

I went to a liberal arts college and majored in chemistry. Going to a liberal arts college didn't do a thing for my career aspects.

Do you think a hiring manager at a chemical plant will care that you studied humanities? Don't think so.

Looking back, I feel like I wasted my time and money.

 

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The core curriculum is what comes to mind when I hear "liberal arts".

i too am skeptical of the idea of having a core curriculum (and that's not what i was talking about when i started this thread). i do think it's good for one to have some breadth in their college education, but as you pointed out, that's kind of what high school is for. seems silly to have to pay for classes you don't have any interest in and/or are not relevant to what you want to do with your life. Brown University has no core requirements, which i think is awesome. interestingly, most students end up fulfilling what is considered a standard core curriculum, despite not being required to do so.

 

[Canadiens1131]

Do you think a hiring manager at a chemical plant will care that you studied humanities? Don't think so.

Looking back, I feel like I wasted my time and money.

This shit right here.

Not having a core curriculum definitely opens up more time to slot in a minor degree that could at least compliment one's major studies.

 

[Liesje]

Brown University has no core requirements, which i think is awesome. interestingly, most students end up fulfilling what is considered a standard core curriculum, despite not being required to do so.

I probably would have come close, but I had more of a "liberal arts" degree anyway, and my program did not have as many credit requirements specific to the program as a lot of other majors. The students that are in, say, the education program often go to school longer b/c of the core requirement. For example, our special ed program requires a full semester aiding and a full semester student teaching in both a gen ed and special ed classroom, so that's two full years just doing the aiding and student teaching requirements. Those students have to do an extra semester if they cram in their core, or more likely they are fifth year super seniors. Definitely a waste of time/money when it costs over $25K/yr to attend and you already know you're going into special ed so additional PE, 100-level chemistry, etc is really not relevant at all.

 

[A stor]

Liberal Arts degrees were great in the past. But, it is a new job market. Decide what you want and take only the courses required. It will get at least into entry level. Becuase no one wants to train the respective employee.

 

[BVS]

I still think that the point of a college education (at the bachelor level anyway) is to teach you to think critically. This can then be applied to any number of fields.

I agree 100%, it's still a skill that is hugely lacking in N.A. and unfortunately not valued by far too many groups.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

i think liberal arts education is a waste of time and money. especially now that colleges seem to be piling on more and more high school part 2 crap that's made it more difficult to get a four year degree in, you know, four years. yet in other countries where you don't have to take science for an english major or math for a communications major, you can graduate easily in three years.

i already took plenty of math and science in high school and there's a reason my major is a foreign language - i don't want to do that stuff ever again. especially since most kids don't get to go on a full scholarship, they've got to borrow money to pay for a class that isn't essential to their major and they'll likely never use after completing the class. i'm sure it sucks for calculus professors because most students wouldn't take the class if they didn't have to so they'd teach a lot less classes (or be let go if a college were to switch from liberal arts to more specialised teaching), but oh well. it's not impossible: my boyfriend's mother is a college professor in tax and certainly doesn't only teach one class with five people in it or anything.

tl;dr: since a college degree is becoming more and more essential to get any sort of job, liberal arts education is something that just needs to go. it's a waste of time and money. it'd be better to take more classes that appeal to your major (or allow you to add a minor to your degree) instead of classes that couldn't have less to do with it.

 

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perhaps i phrased my initial post wrong ... i wasn't referring to the idea of a required core curriculum. i guess by "liberal arts" i meant humanities and the like and majors that many people would consider "useless" (philosophy, gender studies, classics, languages, literature, art, etc - as in, should these majors even continued to be offered.

as for the "only take what pertains to your major" logic, that's all fine and good if you actually know what you want to major in. many people have no idea what they want to do when they first enter college, or they change their minds. also, i think there's something to be said for taking a class that is interesting to you even if it isn't related to your final career path. i don't think we should require students to take classes in a bunch of different disciplines, but i certainly don't think it should be discouraged. knowledge and education ought to be valued. so i have to disagree with the notion that learning for the sake of learning is "a waste of time and money." but, to each his own.

 

[Liesje]

Are there schools that brand themselves "liberal arts" that do not have a required core curriculum? Where I work they market themselves based on the emphasis on the core curriculum, and not necessarily majoring in humanities, but being required to take them and having a very broad range of majors/programs. Our school would not exist if majors in the humanities were no longer available, so I guess that answers the question of whether or not they should be offered.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

as for the "only take what pertains to your major" logic, that's all fine and good if you actually know what you want to major in. many people have no idea what they want to do when they first enter college, or they change their minds. also, i think there's something to be said for taking a class that is interesting to you even if it isn't related to your final career path. i don't think we should require students to take classes in a bunch of different disciplines, but i certainly don't think it should be discouraged. knowledge and education ought to be valued. so i have to disagree with the notion that learning for the sake of learning is "a waste of time and money." but, to each his own.

true, but that's what electives are for. even now going to a non-liberal arts college, there's still electives i must take. plus i wouldn't call forcing some 19 year old to take calculus learning for the sake of learning. i'd be willing to bet that if you polled students in a calculus class who were not taking it because it would directly apply to their major, they don't enjoy it. they take it because they have to, and probably would rather not take it if possible. certainly you're going to get people who take a class because they have to and find themselves really clicking with it and possibly adjusting their major accordingly, but surely that's the exception and not the norm.

 

[2861U2]

I still think that the point of a college education (at the bachelor level anyway) is to teach you to think critically. This can then be applied to any number of fields.

I agree. The first class I went to on my first day of freshman year, my professor said that the goal of college is for you to learn how to learn, and if you can successfully know how to teach yourself something by the time you graduate, you've pretty much succeeded. That's always stuck with me.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I still think that the point of a college education (at the bachelor level anyway) is to teach you to think critically

I agree with that too. I majored in sociology and never did anything related to that. I had an economics professor who tried to talk me into changing to a business or economics major, but I knew it wasn't for me. In retrospect do I wish I had done that? Sometimes. But considering the fact that even a vocational type of degree is no guarantee of a job and/or career these days I don't see how it makes that much of a difference. I think internships and professional work experience (even if it's volunteer) are much more important-something I never did in college.

I wanted to go to graduate school but I couldn't afford it.

 

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true, but that's what electives are for. even now going to a non-liberal arts college, there's still electives i must take. plus i wouldn't call forcing some 19 year old to take calculus learning for the sake of learning. i'd be willing to bet that if you polled students in a calculus class who were not taking it because it would directly apply to their major, they don't enjoy it. they take it because they have to, and probably would rather not take it if possible. certainly you're going to get people who take a class because they have to and find themselves really clicking with it and possibly adjusting their major accordingly, but surely that's the exception and not the norm.

well yeah, i'm not saying all college students should be required to take calculus. i think core requirements should be very limited or completely absent, especially since most core reqs are basically high school repeats (as i believe you mentioned). i don't mind the way my school does it so much because we have "distribution requirements" - Natural & Mathematical Sciences, Social & Historical Sciences, and Arts & Humanities. since the fields are extremely broad students have a lot of leeway. i only took one math class, and "The Social and Historical Impact of Video Games" counted toward my S&H requirement.

but yea, i'm a fan of electives, not requirements. i'm saying i think students should be encouraged to explore their interests in college, not required to take things that don't interest them. and i agree with what anitram and 2861U2 said about the point of college. yes, you get the degree to get a job, but you learn skills while you're in college working toward that degree which should stay with you forever. i think the ability to think critically and teach yourself things as well as obtaining knowledge about various subjects enhances you as a person.

 

[shreya]

I agree with lot of the comments here. College is to explore and folks should focus more on 'University of Life' concepts rather than some course work required for you to take. However, I think its because of the way the system is setup. we are forced to take 'requirements' because the people controlling the system had to. And with no bad intent, they feel because they went through it, it must be right and it made them a better professional. So we cannot change the system as per these 'influential/decision making' people. so now we are forced to take some requirements whcih necessarily is not applicable to all. live and learn I guess, that how i view it.

 

[Bono's shades]

Do what you love, Collapse. If you major in math of finance or engineering or something like that but don't have a passion or aptitude for it, you will probably have trouble getting/keeping a job in that field anyway, and even if you do, you will be miserable.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I can't fathom spending tens of thousands of dollars on a degree that will not get you a job/career to match. I figure your liberal art degrees are the same as our bachelor of arts degrees, and if so, they're unfortunately a long 3 years spent studying with no real career prospects at the end. Your degrees in the US cost sooo much more, and so many of you study them with, I assume, the knowledge that they won't really take you far. I just cannot grasp this well. Humanities are a great field, arts is wonderful, but when it is costing that much? I don't understand.

 

[the iron horse]

Actually, all education is self-education. A teacher is only a guide, to point out the way, and no school, no matter how excellent, can give you education.


What you receive is like the outlines in a child’s coloring book. You must fill in the colors yourself.



~Louis L'Amour

 

[Liesje]

I can't fathom spending tens of thousands of dollars on a degree that will not get you a job/career to match. I figure your liberal art degrees are the same as our bachelor of arts degrees, and if so, they're unfortunately a long 3 years spent studying with no real career prospects at the end. Your degrees in the US cost sooo much more, and so many of you study them with, I assume, the knowledge that they won't really take you far. I just cannot grasp this well. Humanities are a great field, arts is wonderful, but when it is costing that much? I don't understand.

Like someone said earlier, now employers want you to have a BA just to work retail or bag groceries. It's like the new GED or high school diploma... the piece of paper alone doesn't mean anything but unless you have other trade skills you often can't go far without it. My mom's co-worker was required to go back to school after 40 years and get a degree just to keep a job she's already qualified for.

There's not really a "liberal arts degree", it's a Bachelor of Arts or Bachelor of Science. Liberal arts refers more to how the college/university's core curriculum is structured. Humanities are probably encouraged more at a liberal arts school than other places, but you can go to a liberal arts school for engineering, nursing, computer science, etc. Liberal arts schools generally require about two years worth of "core" courses in pretty much every area of study (science, math, English, lit, foreign language, recreation/sport, music, art, communications, economics, sociology, computer...). I have a BA in Business Communications and have taken courses in criminal forensics, cellular biology, Jane Austen lit, modern dance, and studied micro-development IN Tanzania.

It's not that a BA and/or liberal arts course of study cost more, it just doesn't seem as worth it as four years for something like engineering, nursing, or teaching.

 

[shreya]

liberal arts education is all about ur intellectual capacity. and also intersting college .... u should go through lots of such sites that will help to chose a subject.. i know one site www.liberalartscolleges.org.... i will try to search more and will inform about it...

 

[Dfit00]

Like someone said earlier, now employers want you to have a BA just to work retail or bag groceries. It's like the new GED or high school diploma... the piece of paper alone doesn't mean anything but unless you have other trade skills you often can't go far without it. My mom's co-worker was required to go back to school after 40 years and get a degree just to keep a job she's already qualified for.

There's not really a "liberal arts degree", it's a Bachelor of Arts or Bachelor of Science. Liberal arts refers more to how the college/university's core curriculum is structured. Humanities are probably encouraged more at a liberal arts school than other places, but you can go to a liberal arts school for engineering, nursing, computer science, etc. Liberal arts schools generally require about two years worth of "core" courses in pretty much every area of study (science, math, English, lit, foreign language, recreation/sport, music, art, communications, economics, sociology, computer...). I have a BA in Business Communications and have taken courses in criminal forensics, cellular biology, Jane Austen lit, modern dance, and studied micro-development IN Tanzania.

It's not that a BA and/or liberal arts course of study cost more, it just doesn't seem as worth it as four years for something like engineering, nursing, or teaching.

BA degree programs have a more lenient courseload and are therefore considered "easy" because they don't involve high level science and math in contrast with almost all BS degree programs. High school kids need to be acquainted about this fact, and it's up to them to choose which degree path and area of study to pursue.

Only about 28% of all the US population has a bachelor's degree or higher, which is somewhat low compared to other industrialized nations in Europe and Asia. People in the US usually wonder what the other 72% of people that don't have a college degree do for a living...

Talent and self-expression sometimes pays better than knowledge and experience.

 

[Liesje]

BA degree programs have a more lenient courseload and are therefore considered "easy" because they don't involve high level science and math in contrast with almost all BS degree programs.

But, we're talking about liberal arts curriculum that generally require math and science courses even for BAs. Everyone has the same "core" requirements regardless of what degree or program they choose. Liberal arts is not synonymous with BA, that is the point I've been trying to make. I work for a college that sells itself as a "liberal arts" school and that refers to the core curriculum, not that there is more pressure to do a BA program vs. a BS program. The BS programs require the same arts and humanities courses as the BAs.