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Old 01-25-2009, 01:30 PM   #76
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i know, without question that homosexuals have quite literally been persecuted for their lifestyle. as wrong as that is, you must learn that everyone who disagrees with you is not necessarily an uneducated, heartless bastard.


firstly, please don't use the word "lifestyle." my lifestyle is urban, maybe, and in my lifestyle i take lots of public transportation, go out to restaurants, prioritize my savings so that i'm able to take a good vacation once a year, and i value books, movies, and music. being gay is not a "lifestyle." i do not have a gay "lifestyle." i don't even know what one is.

on this issue, in any western nation, no one has any excuse anymore. we all know Ellen. we all know Rosie. we all know Anderson Cooper. and the moment anyone actually knows, among their family and friends, a gay person, their opinion on this subject changes. all that people have left to hold on to that allows them to maintain their homophobia is religion, or just straight up bigotry that's akin to racism.

so i think "uneducated" and "heartless" are entirely appropriate.
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Old 01-25-2009, 01:31 PM   #77
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NOOOOOooooo.

billy graham, perhaps the world's most renowned preacher REFERENCED jesus?!


did billy graham say jesus in four different languages and then recite the Lord's Prayer?

there are distinctions being made in here. saying Jesus is one thing, and even for me, that pushes the line. but saying the Lord's Prayer certainly crosses that line and goes from a broad service under which people of all faiths can find a home, and into something that's exclusive.
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Old 01-26-2009, 12:23 PM   #78
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firstly, please don't use the word "lifestyle." my lifestyle is urban, maybe, and in my lifestyle i take lots of public transportation, go out to restaurants, prioritize my savings so that i'm able to take a good vacation once a year, and i value books, movies, and music. being gay is not a "lifestyle." i do not have a gay "lifestyle." i don't even know what one is.

on this issue, in any western nation, no one has any excuse anymore. we all know Ellen. we all know Rosie. we all know Anderson Cooper. and the moment anyone actually knows, among their family and friends, a gay person, their opinion on this subject changes. all that people have left to hold on to that allows them to maintain their homophobia is religion, or just straight up bigotry that's akin to racism.

so i think "uneducated" and "heartless" are entirely appropriate.
alright

for a start if you want to pick on my terminology, fine. that wasn't meant to cause offence.

as for "the issue", your response has water under it. there is no question that you're a brilliant individual, but in my view when you dismiss others in the way that you have, you're betraying noone more so than yourself.

being "right" isn't good enough. you should know that. but perhaps that's not even the point... i mean, i have no idea what you're like in real life, and perhaps you're a lot like me who use this board as a place to vent.

but in order to change minds, this polarising approach you take will get you nowhere. if in fact, it is religion that's instilled their homophobia do you really think that by bashing what many hold dear to them, you're going to get them to change their mind?

do outspoken anti-gay people who openly ridicule your sexual orientation have ANY effect on changing the way you feel inside? does it have ANY effect on you into even thinking about changing your sexual preference?

of course not.

so why do you think by attacking religion itself, something that mainstream america is known for, do you think you're going to convert hearts and minds to your point of view?
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Old 01-26-2009, 12:24 PM   #79
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firstly, please don't use the word "lifestyle." my lifestyle is urban, maybe, and in my lifestyle i take lots of public transportation, go out to restaurants, prioritize my savings so that i'm able to take a good vacation once a year, and i value books, movies, and music. being gay is not a "lifestyle." i do not have a gay "lifestyle." i don't even know what one is.

on this issue, in any western nation, no one has any excuse anymore. we all know Ellen. we all know Rosie. we all know Anderson Cooper. and the moment anyone actually knows, among their family and friends, a gay person, their opinion on this subject changes. all that people have left to hold on to that allows them to maintain their homophobia is religion, or just straight up bigotry that's akin to racism.

so i think "uneducated" and "heartless" are entirely appropriate.
Anderson Cooper's gay? Not that there's anything wrong with that...
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Old 01-26-2009, 12:25 PM   #80
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did billy graham say jesus in four different languages and then recite the Lord's Prayer?

there are distinctions being made in here. saying Jesus is one thing, and even for me, that pushes the line. but saying the Lord's Prayer certainly crosses that line and goes from a broad service under which people of all faiths can find a home, and into something that's exclusive.
if you invite a pastor to make a speech, and you think he's going to do something that's politically correct and inviting to all faiths, you're forgetting that you just invited a preacher to speak in the first place.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:54 PM   #81
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alright

for a start if you want to pick on my terminology, fine. that wasn't meant to cause offence.

as for "the issue", your response has water under it. there is no question that you're a brilliant individual, but in my view when you dismiss others in the way that you have, you're betraying noone more so than yourself.

being "right" isn't good enough. you should know that. but perhaps that's not even the point... i mean, i have no idea what you're like in real life, and perhaps you're a lot like me who use this board as a place to vent.

but in order to change minds, this polarising approach you take will get you nowhere. if in fact, it is religion that's instilled their homophobia do you really think that by bashing what many hold dear to them, you're going to get them to change their mind?

do outspoken anti-gay people who openly ridicule your sexual orientation have ANY effect on changing the way you feel inside? does it have ANY effect on you into even thinking about changing your sexual preference?

of course not.

so why do you think by attacking religion itself, something that mainstream america is known for, do you think you're going to convert hearts and minds to your point of view?


you're right, like you, i use FYM to vent.

and on an individual level, i'm much more tactful and not nearly as strident, and in fact, the only time i ever actually encounter anything remotely resembling prejudice in my day-to-day life is here on FYM.

there is something to be said, however, for arguing with bigots. it's not for the sake of the bigot. it's that when you engage bigotry and challenge it, you can discredit that bigotry to those who are in the middle, those who might not (in this case) know a gay person, and those who really haven't thought about it very much.

that's for all issues, not this specific one.

real life is different than in FYM. i do agree. it's a public forum, whereas a private conversation is much different.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:55 PM   #82
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if you invite a pastor to make a speech, and you think he's going to do something that's politically correct and inviting to all faiths, you're forgetting that you just invited a preacher to speak in the first place.


up until last Tuesday, no pastor had spoken the Lord's Prayer at the inauguration.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:44 PM   #83
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At least he wasn't comparing atheists to Carl Weathers.
Let me tell you a little story about acting: I was doing this Showtime movie, Hot Ice with Anne Archer ... never once touched my per diem. I'd go to Craft Service, get some raw veggies, bacon, Cup-A-Soup. Baby, I got a stew goin'!
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:49 PM   #84
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This is a sidenote to the thread, but: I'd just like to draw attention to the fact that you are saying that you don't like it when people characterize a whole belief system with its extremists, yet how often is it recognized on this board that not all Christians are Crusaders, Southern Republicans, or followers of James Dobson?
That's not the point. Mao and Stalin were not "extreme" atheists. They were extreme in their political beliefs, not in their religious beliefs. And the reasons they did what they did were not because they were atheist.

Whereas, many actions taken by Christians are based on their spiritual beliefs, and, more specifically, the church organizations that they are a part of.
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Old 01-26-2009, 04:20 PM   #85
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you americans are far too easily offended by just about everything.
It's like a fucking sport here, man. Everyone waits for someone to say something that they can pounce on and then everyone else around them breathes deep and looks shocked. It's pretty pathetic the way "we" treat everyone like an enemy. And basically pointless. I don't know how it started. You'd think that the bright side would be that fear would cause most people to STFU and we'd at least have some peace and quiet, but nope. Somehow it just makes people talk more...though about nothing.
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:30 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
you're right, like you, i use FYM to vent.

and on an individual level, i'm much more tactful and not nearly as strident, and in fact, the only time i ever actually encounter anything remotely resembling prejudice in my day-to-day life is here on FYM.

there is something to be said, however, for arguing with bigots. it's not for the sake of the bigot. it's that when you engage bigotry and challenge it, you can discredit that bigotry to those who are in the middle, those who might not (in this case) know a gay person, and those who really haven't thought about it very much.

that's for all issues, not this specific one.

real life is different than in FYM. i do agree. it's a public forum, whereas a private conversation is much different.
okay, cool.

all is right in the world now.

cheers
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Old 01-27-2009, 05:15 AM   #87
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Let me tell you a little story about acting: I was doing this Showtime movie, Hot Ice with Anne Archer ... never once touched my per diem. I'd go to Craft Service, get some raw veggies, bacon, Cup-A-Soup. Baby, I got a stew goin'!
haha, and did you know that you can get a free refill on your coke at Burger King?

It's a wonderful restaurant!
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:03 PM   #88
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That's not the point. Mao and Stalin were not "extreme" atheists. They were extreme in their political beliefs, not in their religious beliefs. And the reasons they did what they did were not because they were atheist.
is there such thing as extreme atheism, or conservative atheism? what grounds does any atheist make a moral objection to what stalin or mao did?

cs lewis "my argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. but how had i gotten this idea of 'just' and 'unjust'? "
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:48 PM   #89
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is there such thing as extreme atheism,
Yes, I believe so...

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or conservative atheism?
There are conservative atheist, but I don't know how one would define conservative atheism...


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what grounds does any atheist make a moral objection to what stalin or mao did?
I find this kind of questioning to be extremely narrow minded. Human empathy alone could be grounds for setting morals, treat fellow humans the way I would want to be treated...
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Old 01-28-2009, 12:35 AM   #90
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is there such thing as extreme atheism, or conservative atheism? what grounds does any atheist make a moral objection to what stalin or mao did?

cs lewis "my argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. but how had i gotten this idea of 'just' and 'unjust'? "
What grounds do you say that something is morally right?

How can you justify anything at all?

What makes the bible right?

If God is the definition of good then how can the term have any moral meaning?

What makes God good?

Adopting a tit-for-tat stance of social interaction, which is essentially the Golden Rule, defines a lot of moral intuition. God is not an explanation of moral behaviour, and the claims should be challenged.
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