Jorg Haider dead in car crash at 58
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How interesting. I was just talking about Austria and the far-right yesterday with someone.
On a side note, I see some idiot American commented and is regurgitating that "liberal fascism" nonsense that Jonah Goldberg fabricated. Really, that Cypriot commenter is right, and I really do question the intelligence of the average American too these days.
On a side note, I see some idiot American commented and is regurgitating that "liberal fascism" nonsense that Jonah Goldberg fabricated. Really, that Cypriot commenter is right, and I really do question the intelligence of the average American too these days.
last unicorn
Blue Crack Addict
I'm from Austria, many people hated him here and his position and politics, but he was very popular in his home province of Carinthia. Personally, I couldn't stand him and was against his politics, even though (or because) my father knew him quite well on a personal level and always voted for him. Some years ago he was sabotaging his own party, left the political stage, but only for a short time, and had an enormous comeback with the next elections in 2000. There was a lot of controversy surrounding this success, so he stepped back and let other people lead the party into a coalition that became the new Austrian government.
We just had elections some weeks ago and the far right parties were the clear winners, so it looked like Haider would finally get into federal politics again. Though I never agreed with his political positions I still say it's tragic he died that way, condolences to the family.
We just had elections some weeks ago and the far right parties were the clear winners, so it looked like Haider would finally get into federal politics again. Though I never agreed with his political positions I still say it's tragic he died that way, condolences to the family.
OP
OP
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
Is it true that Haider was gay? This was widely alleged in German and Austrian newspaper articles a few years back.
OP
OP
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
I saw, prominently displayed in billboards, including one near the main train station, in Vienna a few years ago, the political slogan - I assume it was for Haider's party - "Wien darf nicht Istanbul werden" ("Vienna must not be allowed to become like Istanbul").
It occured to me, although there is plenty of underhand racism in the UK and Ireland, generally one does not see it as direct, and officially sanctioned, as that.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
Oh good lord. 
If I do get to Vienna next summer, how bad is it going to be?
If I do get to Vienna next summer, how bad is it going to be?
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
You couldn't imagine. The situation is dire. I think.
I don't pity his death.
I don't pity his death.
OP
OP
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
Why is the situation dire? Austria is surely no more, or less, racist, than it has ever been. A certain % of the population like to flirt with racism, but the majority do not - same as any country, really - it's just, based on personal observation, right-leaning political parties seem to be much more unapologetic about racism there than in other European countries.
As Last Unicorn says, it's unfortunate for the family, but I don't pity his death either. I think he was a scumbag in a nice suit. And a scumbag in a nice suit, is still a scumbag.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
From what I've read in the paper today, it's not a loss for humanity, just his family.
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Was sarcasm. Though I think I misread martha's post being sarcastic about the billboard when in fact it was rather asking for how bad racism is in Austria?
Well, anyways, I don't think that racism in Austria is worse than in other countries.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
Utopia is only a few billion deaths away.
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
OK, then my post didn't make sense.
Well, anyways. You shouldn't be concerned going to Vienna anytime. It's definitely not an especially racist place. Most voters of the right wing party in European countries don't do so because they particularly agree with that party, but because they are thinking this way they are "protesting" the main parties and force them to do better in the next four years. Needless to say that it doesn't help and is a pretty pathetic way of trying to put pressure on the main parties. The right-wing parties of course feel confirmed and their tone gets even uglier.
If you went to Vienna next summer, or any other place in Europe, you sure will not recognise any blatant racism. So far any demonstration by the right is greatly outnumbered by a counter-demonstration of the left.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
:relief:
Thanks. I'm hoping to get there, but it's contingent on a few things out of my direct control.
Thanks. I'm hoping to get there, but it's contingent on a few things out of my direct control.
UberBeaver
Breakdancing Soul Pilgrim
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
Semi ironic statement that if the world is marginally better with one less neofascist it could be terrific if enough people dropped dead, and that has an element of truth to it.
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
There is diminishing marginal returns of dropping dead.
last unicorn
Blue Crack Addict
There is not more racism in Austria than there is in other countries. 
I'm sorry if that's the picture being painted by foreign media.
The thing is that not everyone who voted for Haider or his party was a racist or fascist. People were simply fed up with the big parties and the old government and voted for the right wing parties to show their protest. Scary enough, most voters were young. The two leaders of the two right wing parties in Austria had a very young, dynamic image that appealed to the young people more than the conservative, old fashioned and boring image of the people in the two major parties, so many young people voted for the right wing parties, many of them without really supporting every position of their programme. This protest has won them an enormous amount of votes.
There is also a second right wing party, the Freedom Party, that's even more right wing, they were formed after Haider's party split some years ago, they're even worse. Compared to Haider, the Freedom Party leader doesn't hide his messages in fine rhetorics or an elegant appearance.
I won't miss Haider, either. I don't know what his party is going to do now, because they were basically a one man show.
I'm sorry if that's the picture being painted by foreign media.
The thing is that not everyone who voted for Haider or his party was a racist or fascist. People were simply fed up with the big parties and the old government and voted for the right wing parties to show their protest. Scary enough, most voters were young. The two leaders of the two right wing parties in Austria had a very young, dynamic image that appealed to the young people more than the conservative, old fashioned and boring image of the people in the two major parties, so many young people voted for the right wing parties, many of them without really supporting every position of their programme. This protest has won them an enormous amount of votes.
There is also a second right wing party, the Freedom Party, that's even more right wing, they were formed after Haider's party split some years ago, they're even worse. Compared to Haider, the Freedom Party leader doesn't hide his messages in fine rhetorics or an elegant appearance.
I won't miss Haider, either. I don't know what his party is going to do now, because they were basically a one man show.
achtung_girl
New Yorker
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There is not more racism in Austria than there is in other countries.
I'm sorry if that's the picture being painted by foreign media.
That's really sad, especially for a small country like yours.
I think martha would have had no concern about going, for example, to Paris, although they have more problems with that issue than Austria. But France appears often enough in the world news with other (nicer) topics.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
I think martha would have had no concern about going, for example, to Paris, although they have more problems with that issue than Austria. But France appears often enough in the world news with other (nicer) topics.
I think that's true.
It's too bad that the youth of Austria didn't think before they voted. But that happens all over the place.
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DrTeeth
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
According to the newspaper, Haider was driving in the fog at twice the maximum speed. Apparently, his car was almost brand new and there were no traces of sabotage.
last unicorn
Blue Crack Addict
^ That's right. He was driving too fast in the middle of a foggy night.
Of course, people are already talking about conspiracy thories.
I was actually shocked to see in the news how his "fans" are glorifying the man right now.
Of course, people are already talking about conspiracy thories.
I was actually shocked to see in the news how his "fans" are glorifying the man right now.
hiphop
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Well, it has been making the news. Surprised to see this discussed on FYM though.
Of course, it is a terrible accident so condolences to the family.
Politically, my initial rection was, one Nazi less, good for the country.
He drove 90 mph instead of allowed 45 mph. His long time friend and minister of the same party, Gorbach, wanted to rise speed limits in Austria but it didn´t pass legislation, so there you go, sorry but it´s his own fault.
The reaction of Austrian politicians of other parties, who hated him, to his death is indifferent - they say they didn´t politically agree with him but he was a great political figure with lots of charisma etc. and what a bad accident so they are so sorry. Of course they are only trying to fish voters, who will the people who saw Haider as the strong leader, turn to?
Martha, no worries for racism in Austria - we officially love tourists especially from rich countries. Every Austrian will welcome you, but many won´t welcome asylum-seeking people from Eastern Europe, xenophobia has spread. Haider is responible with his extreme propaganda; one of his last political actions was to send criminal foreigners to a camp.
The party is not the only far right party in Austria, apart from Haider who, like last unicorn descibed, split the party a couple of years ago you also have a certain Strache who bakes up the old racism and has success with these topics here.
Of course, the racism always goes against Nigerian immigrants (in the local media, they are "drug dealers" anyway, and some were beaten to death by Austian police with a police doctor watching), or against well-integrated teenagers who, according to new Austrian immigrants laws, "have" to be sent back.. this was quite a big media story in Austria, a young girl ran away and threatened to commit suicide if the Austrian officials wouldn´t leave her in Austria - she then hid in a church - and still Austrian politicians rip immigrant´s families apart, while being supported by a certain part of the Austrian population who is talked into hating immigrants - it is ugly, they say the young "bitch" "blackmails" the country -
so you can imagine it is an ugly mood in Austria, looking at these events. However, racism never turns towards tourists.
Naturally, there are problems when the country has many immigrants (after the fall of communism, people who either seek asylum or who wanted to enjoy some meager fruits of capitalism by working in shit jobs here, even if they would often be academically qualified for other jobs - but who wants an immigrant in a high paid job?) and with some, there are problems because it is hard to learn German, it is hard when immigrant youth gangs beat up others, etc. On the other hand, this situation was used by Haider to get popular. He rode big campaigns, making so many people hate. He was/is always present in media because he always makes good headlines. And for the few Austrian milliardaires, for big business, injecting xenophobia is a welcome distraction so folks don´t think about who really steals their money, no, immigrants, the poor, are an easy scapegoat, the ultimate punching bag. Send them back where they belong to!
As you can imagine, I can´t manage to feel real sadness when the manipulator, liar and crook that Haider politically was, dies. There are quite a few Austrians who think like me, cheered and drank a beer on old Haider; but there are many Austrians, especially Carinthians, who feel their everlasting idol, their winner, their leader, the young, smart, guru who always shook hands and had a smart grin and "provoked them up there in the EU", "told the truth about priviliedges of politicians" (what about his priviledges, in compare to those of immigrants?) has left them alone.
I remember when the fashion of integrating NLP in politicain´s speeches started - you could hear the most blatant, easy-to-fall-for arguments, pure propaganda, it went well with most of the Austrians, they believe this shit and they like to believe it. The young generation cares about drinking and partying, and both right wing parties present themselves well in that style.
His death will not change the immigrants´situation in Austria, but it remains to be seen if his fans find a new leader who is as charismatic.
Politically, I´m thankful he´s gone.
Of course, it is a terrible accident so condolences to the family.
Politically, my initial rection was, one Nazi less, good for the country.
He drove 90 mph instead of allowed 45 mph. His long time friend and minister of the same party, Gorbach, wanted to rise speed limits in Austria but it didn´t pass legislation, so there you go, sorry but it´s his own fault.
The reaction of Austrian politicians of other parties, who hated him, to his death is indifferent - they say they didn´t politically agree with him but he was a great political figure with lots of charisma etc. and what a bad accident so they are so sorry. Of course they are only trying to fish voters, who will the people who saw Haider as the strong leader, turn to?
Martha, no worries for racism in Austria - we officially love tourists especially from rich countries. Every Austrian will welcome you, but many won´t welcome asylum-seeking people from Eastern Europe, xenophobia has spread. Haider is responible with his extreme propaganda; one of his last political actions was to send criminal foreigners to a camp.
The party is not the only far right party in Austria, apart from Haider who, like last unicorn descibed, split the party a couple of years ago you also have a certain Strache who bakes up the old racism and has success with these topics here.
Of course, the racism always goes against Nigerian immigrants (in the local media, they are "drug dealers" anyway, and some were beaten to death by Austian police with a police doctor watching), or against well-integrated teenagers who, according to new Austrian immigrants laws, "have" to be sent back.. this was quite a big media story in Austria, a young girl ran away and threatened to commit suicide if the Austrian officials wouldn´t leave her in Austria - she then hid in a church - and still Austrian politicians rip immigrant´s families apart, while being supported by a certain part of the Austrian population who is talked into hating immigrants - it is ugly, they say the young "bitch" "blackmails" the country -
so you can imagine it is an ugly mood in Austria, looking at these events. However, racism never turns towards tourists.
Naturally, there are problems when the country has many immigrants (after the fall of communism, people who either seek asylum or who wanted to enjoy some meager fruits of capitalism by working in shit jobs here, even if they would often be academically qualified for other jobs - but who wants an immigrant in a high paid job?) and with some, there are problems because it is hard to learn German, it is hard when immigrant youth gangs beat up others, etc. On the other hand, this situation was used by Haider to get popular. He rode big campaigns, making so many people hate. He was/is always present in media because he always makes good headlines. And for the few Austrian milliardaires, for big business, injecting xenophobia is a welcome distraction so folks don´t think about who really steals their money, no, immigrants, the poor, are an easy scapegoat, the ultimate punching bag. Send them back where they belong to!
As you can imagine, I can´t manage to feel real sadness when the manipulator, liar and crook that Haider politically was, dies. There are quite a few Austrians who think like me, cheered and drank a beer on old Haider; but there are many Austrians, especially Carinthians, who feel their everlasting idol, their winner, their leader, the young, smart, guru who always shook hands and had a smart grin and "provoked them up there in the EU", "told the truth about priviliedges of politicians" (what about his priviledges, in compare to those of immigrants?) has left them alone.
I remember when the fashion of integrating NLP in politicain´s speeches started - you could hear the most blatant, easy-to-fall-for arguments, pure propaganda, it went well with most of the Austrians, they believe this shit and they like to believe it. The young generation cares about drinking and partying, and both right wing parties present themselves well in that style.
His death will not change the immigrants´situation in Austria, but it remains to be seen if his fans find a new leader who is as charismatic.
Politically, I´m thankful he´s gone.
hiphop
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
It´s quite funny to read through this glorifications and conspircay theories. I already suggested, to some of his fans, that Al Quaeda has manipulted the breaks of the car. Also - hardly surprising, this isn´t reported in the media - he was chased by Paparazzi like Diana! Indeed, he´s the Diana of Austria! And guess what, his car was a VW Phaeton - google up the name and you will see what I mean - its all greek mythology.
He´s an ancient hero! Cheers!
hiphop
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
There is not more racism in Austria than there is in other countries.
Are you sure? In the rest of the world, how often does an immigrant get killed -by gluing his mouth and nose so he can´t breathe- by aliens´ police in a plane that sends him back to Africa? With NO political reaction - the police officers are NOT tried, the interior minster does not resign?
Austria has been classified as a leader in racism and xenophobia by human rights organizations.
As a fellow Austrian, with all respect, I think your opinion is typical Austrian understatement.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
I wasn't worried about my treatment. I'm white, so that won't be an issue. It's the overall climate and the rest of the crap you describe that makes me think twice. But Austria's 20th century history has simply been extended into this century, hasn't it?
hiphop
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Thanks for your reply. I think you will not see that much of the crap when you come to see the typical Austrian sights, St. Stephen´s Cathedral, when you visit the opera house or the former Emperor´s palace Schönbrunn. You also will not see much of it in Salzburg. I think Austria may be worth a visit for many reasons, there are beautiful landscapes, lots of things too see, and many American expatriates like Vienna.. on the other hand I sympathize with everyone who would think of staying away because of this racist climate towards immigrants. You will find this crap in the minds of some Austrians when you talk to them. The funny thing is, most of them are not bad people - just like most rednecks, or people who pray for the success for their countries´ war in churches, are not bad people per se. The sad thing is they are talked into hating the "other"; the other religion, the other culture. They think others "rob" them of something and often do not realize that they are robbed by politicians. Haider, for example, was a man who also stood for sharp cutbacks in the social system of Austria, together with the conservative party who had the coalition with him. Surprisingly, this did not destroy his image of "a man of the people".
I.e. it´s not that every 20 metres you will see someone who cries out "Heil!" (also, this is against the law - and imo good that it is), but don´t be mistaken, 30% of the people you will meet will be anti-immigrant and support such racist action.
Apparently, Austria has only learned its lesson for a couple of decades. When memories of WWII were still strong, up to the end of the 1970s, 95% of the people would have strongly opposed this way of propaganda and hate-injections. Now this is long gone, the generation of WWII has died, so there´s new breeding ground for selfish nationalism and xenophobia and coming with it, fresh examples of state-sanctioned violence. Media and politicains love to play along whenever it suits their plans, knowing they can afford it now - they couldn´t 25 years ago, and Haider is partly responsible for the change in attitude.
If all this doesn´t put you off enough to visit beautiful Vienna, you are indeed very welcome and we could have a beer at a pub together like I did with Sula!
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