Jesus Hates Religion

[nathan1977]

Hard to believe a thread hasn't sprung up around this yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

 

[PhilsFan]

He seems pretty religious to me.

 

[Canadiens1131]

I'm not comfortable with this rapper's "otherness"

 

[Jive Turkey]

I have a theory that in 100 years or so, someone is going to look back at David Koresh and the Branch Davidians and decide that he was legit. He claimed to be the Son of God. Foresaw his own death. Was untrusted and brutalized by the government of the day and was ultimately martyred by them. His church was low key and not noteworthy during its time. They'll write books about his life and his teachings. They'll add supernatural flourishes. In time it'll become one of the largest religions in the world.

 

[PhilsFan]

In defense of the future Davidians, the FBI did kill 76 people by lighting Mount Carmel on fire and then told everyone the Davidians did it to themselves.

 

[Jive Turkey]

All the better to manipulate you with

 

[deep]

I have a theory that in 100 years or so, someone is going to look back at David Koresh and the Branch Davidians and decide that he was legit. He claimed to be the Son of God. Foresaw his own death. Was untrusted and brutalized by the government of the day and was ultimately martyred by them. His church was low key and not noteworthy during its time. They'll write books about his life and his teachings. They'll add supernatural flourishes. In time it'll become one of the largest religions in the world.

not fair to compare Koresh to Jesus

true person ≠ construct

 

[nathan1977]

I have a theory that in 100 years or so, someone is going to look back at David Koresh and the Branch Davidians and decide that he was legit. He claimed to be the Son of God. Foresaw his own death. Was untrusted and brutalized by the government of the day and was ultimately martyred by them. His church was low key and not noteworthy during its time. They'll write books about his life and his teachings. They'll add supernatural flourishes. In time it'll become one of the largest religions in the world.

David who?

 

[Jive Turkey]

Jesus who?

.

 

[BVS]

His poem would be an interesting conversation to have within the Church, but outside of it, it rings a little hollow.

 

[yolland]

Hard to believe a thread hasn't sprung up around this yet.

What to you is most discussion-worthy about it? My guess is in all likelihood most people in here hadn't heard of it; it's clearly coming from, and primarily aimed at, those of practicing Christian and especially evangelical Protestant backgrounds--after all most of it's devoted to laying out one person's baggage from and grievances with that specific environment, which isn't necessarily going to resonate with everybody. Having said that, it did come across to me like a familiar enough version of discontents common to many religiously inclined young people (not unique to Christians, nor to our times, though I think the increasingly individualistic nature of our culture probably does heighten it).

This blogger, a pastor, had a subsequent online exchange with him about it: Does Jesus Hate Religion? Kinda, Sorta, Not Really – Kevin DeYoung

 

[PhilsFan]

"I don't hate Jesus, I just hate the people who invented him."

 

[Pearl]

Hard to believe a thread hasn't sprung up around this yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

I thought about posting this, but knew it would only start another endless debate over the existence of God, the need for religion, and so forth. Y'know, the type of threads that go no where.

 

[Jive Turkey]

"I don't hate Jesus, I just hate the people who invented him."

That's kinda what I get out of it too. The Jesus he 'knows' (Not in the biblical sense. Waka waka) is a creation of the religion he claims to hate. I refuse to believe there are any anti religious (at least, anti christian church) sentiments in the bible attributed to Jesus

 

[BVS]

I refuse to believe there are any anti religious (at least, anti christian church) sentiments in the bible attributed to Jesus

There was no Christian Church in the Bible.

 

[BEAL]

Your own personal Jesus

 

[PhilsFan]

I thought about posting this, but knew it would only start another endless debate over the existence of God, the need for religion, and so forth. Y'know, the type of threads that go no where.

If you want to say you agree with Jesus' message of love but none of the other stuff, that's fine. But he's loving the Bible in that poem, and the Bible is in many places as bad as the churches themselves. Leviticus is pure hatred.

 

[Jive Turkey]

There was no Christian Church in the Bible.

But there was when they were compiling the bible (and attributing quotes to Jesus that he most likely never said). I'm saying it would be retarded to suggest they would include any 'quotes' that would suggest their organized religion is a bad idea. And again when they translated it in 1611 or whenever that was, there was a Christian church. As if they'd let any anti church sentiments get through then

 

[BVS]

But there was when they were compiling the bible. I'm saying it would be retarded to suggest they would include any 'quotes' from Jesus that would suggest their organized religion is a bad idea. Besides, when they translated it in 1611 or whenever that was, there was a Christian church.

Actually there are quite a few passages where Jesus speaks out against the religious, the leadership, and the practices of the day.

He said nothing about how religion should be, but did tell people to "beware" of the church.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Of the day, being the important part.

 

[nathan1977]

What to you is most discussion-worthy about it?

I was thinking more about the fact that it's gone uber-viral, with over 15M views in less than a week. True, it might be "inside baseball," but I'm always fascinated any time Jesus invades the pop culture.

I'm kind of amused by some of the drive-by comments regarding the historicity of the Gospels/church. There was indeed a Christian church in the Bible, though it was nowhere near as organized and hierarchical then as it became -- more a band of isolated communities spreading Good News from person to person and village to village, with the disciples in Jerusalem forming an initial theological council (the first of which was held in roughly 49 AD). Both the term "Christian" -- which in the Greek literally meant "little Christs" -- and the "church" -- Greek ecclessia -- date within years of Jesus' death and resurrection, and within years of those initial communities forming, Paul was already writing letters stressing freedom from religion. Which makes me think that we've not come all that far from where we started...

 

[Jive Turkey]

I'm kind of amused by some of the drive-by comments

How was anything drive-by?

 

[nathan1977]

^

"There was no Christian Church in the Bible."

Perhaps BVS meant "Christian Church" in the uber-hierarchical Catholic sense, but this comment doesn't line up with the reality was that there was a church in the Bible -- lots of them, in fact. Paul spent a lot of time writing to and visiting with them, and the early followers of Christ spent a lot of time trying to sort out what corresponded with Jesus' teachings and what didn't. (The gnostic heresy was in full bloom almost immediately after Jesus' death and resurrection.)

And as far as what Jesus said/didn't say (your comment asserted that the church fathers "attribut(ed) quotes to Jesus that he most likely never said"), there's a great deal of evidence -- even among liberal scholars such as the Jesus seminar -- for the historical record of Jesus' words and deeds.

 

[anitram]

^

"There was no Christian Church in the Bible."

Perhaps BVS meant "Christian Church" in the uber-hierarchical Catholic sense, but this comment doesn't line up with the reality was that there was a church in the Bible -- lots of them, in fact. Paul spent a lot of time writing to and visiting with them, and the early followers of Christ spent a lot of time trying to sort out what corresponded with Jesus' teachings and what didn't. (The gnostic heresy was in full bloom almost immediately after Jesus' death and resurrection.)

Is it not also historically accurate that by and large the early followers considered themselves to be Jews (later leaning towards some hybrid of Christian Jews) until the destruction of the temple, which was some 4 decades after the death of Christ?

 

[Jive Turkey]

^

"There was no Christian Church in the Bible."

Perhaps BVS meant "Christian Church" in the uber-hierarchical Catholic sense, but this comment doesn't line up with the reality was that there was a church in the Bible -- lots of them, in fact. Paul spent a lot of time writing to and visiting with them, and the early followers of Christ spent a lot of time trying to sort out what corresponded with Jesus' teachings and what didn't. (The gnostic heresy was in full bloom almost immediately after Jesus' death and resurrection.)

And as far as what Jesus said/didn't say (your comment asserted that the church fathers "attribut(ed) quotes to Jesus that he most likely never said"), there's a great deal of evidence -- even among liberal scholars such as the Jesus seminar -- for the historical record of Jesus' words and deeds.

Oh Ok. I just thought it was unfair to say they were driveby comments as I usually think of those as something along the lines of "lol fags" and nothing else. Semantic though. And I admit my historical knowledge of that time period is kinda murky. I'll have to bone up. Even though I rag on religion a lot, I'm glad it exists to some extent, because I find the history, architecture, art, etc to be fascinating/beautiful

 

[BVS]

Is it not also historically accurate that by and large the early followers considered themselves to be Jews (later leaning towards some hybrid of Christian Jews) until the destruction of the temple, which was some 4 decades after the death of Christ?

This is what I was referring to...

 

[maycocksean]

I saw that video on Facebook. Found it interesting. I didn't realize it had gone viral (though I should have known when five or so of my friends all posted it).

It wasn't quite as earth-shattering as the guy in the video seemed to think it was. It was a supposedly radical refutation of the religion, but was actually pretty tame and stuck to the basic assumptions and theology of the Christendom.

Which in my mind isn't necessarily bad, since I happen to be okay with being a Christian and being involved with my church. Still it wasn't as radical push-the-envelope as I think it was intended to be.

I think it's considered "cool" to be anti-religion but pro-Jesus, but I also think it's kind of tired. Maybe it's because I'm naturally more religious than spiritual? I don't know. I believe in church--maybe not the hierarchical (sp) Church--but the church in the sense of a community of believers. Christianity has always been a social religion, and I don't think it's well served when Christians swear off the church in favor of going off to be "spiritual" by themselves somewhere.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I think it's considered "cool" to be anti-religion but pro-Jesus, but I also think it's kind of tired. Maybe it's because I'm naturally more religious than spiritual? I don't know. I believe in church--maybe not the hierarchical (sp) Church--but the church in the sense of a community of believers. Christianity has always been a social religion, and I don't think it's well served when Christians swear off the church in favor of going off to be "spiritual" by themselves somewhere.

I don't know about anyone else, but I was never big on church from a young age simply because, for some reason, when I'd stand with everyone else and recite prayers and hymns and such, or hold hands, or do other things of that sort, that stuff would always sound fine coming out of other people's mouths, the actions fine from others, but when I said/did it, I always felt weird. Either because I was too young to really understand what exactly I was saying or doing and why, or because I just never cared for having to recite the same things at the same time as everyone else and all that...I'm not sure. I'm personally much more comfortable doing any religious things I wish to do in my own way on my own time. And I suspect this may be how some other people feel, too.

Course, then again, I haven't really considered myself a Christian for some time now, and you're referring to people who would call themselves Christians, so...

I have absolutely no problem with people going to church, though, if they so wish. I fully understand the whole idea of wanting to gather with other people to share your thoughts and beliefs and come together for comfort or friendship and to praise whomever you worship together and all that sort of thing. If I could find a church I felt comfortable enough to be in, that didn't subscribe to ritual so much, I'd actually like to check it out.

 

[financeguy]

What does Satan think of religion, I wonder?

 

[nathan1977]

Is it not also historically accurate that by and large the early followers considered themselves to be Jews (later leaning towards some hybrid of Christian Jews) until the destruction of the temple, which was some 4 decades after the death of Christ?

This was probably true for Jewish believers in Jesus, but Christianity had spread to Gentiles in Antioch by ~44AD, which is where "followers of the Way" (another early term for believers in Jesus) first began to be called Christians (at least according to the Acts account). There is evidence that by the late 50s, the term "Christian" was well known to Roman officials -- certainly by 58, when Paul was brought to Rome for his first trial.

The early church struggled with divisions along ethnic lines. Since the early followers were Jewish, there was a belief that -- since Jesus Himself was a devout Jew -- Jewish rites still needed to be upheld, particularly circumcision as a sign of submission to the law of Moses. This view was even upheld by Peter. Paul, himself a devout Jew, took a decidedly different view, with the belief that Jesus completed the law, thus allowing new followers in Jesus to live under grace, not under a fulfilled and completed law of Moses. You can see the early church founders struggling to work out this concept of justification by faith and grace, not by rigid adherence to the law -- a principle lived out by Jesus Himself.

Again, how far we have(n't) come.