Israel's Religious Tensions

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Pearl

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...and this time its not between the Muslims and the Jews:

Thousands of Israelis have rallied in the town of Beit Shemesh against ultra-Orthodox Jewish extremism.
The protest follows two days of clashes after an eight-year-old girl said she had been harassed on her way to school.
Some ultra-Orthodox in Beit Shemesh are seeking to segregate men and women.
President Shimon Peres backed the protest. "The entire nation must be recruited in order to save the majority from the hands of a small minority," Mr Peres said hours before the rally.
He said the demonstration was a defence of the "character" of the state of Israel "against a minority which breaks our national solidarity".
Opposition leader Tzipi Livni also condemned "the extremist elements that are rearing their heads and are trying to impose their world view on us".
Protesters, some holding signs reading "Free Israel from religious coercion" and "Stop Israel from becoming Iran", gathered on Tuesday evening.
Anger spilled over after an eight-year-old American girl, Naama Margolese, said she was afraid to walk to school in the town because ultra-Orthodox men shouted at her.
"When I walk to school in the morning, I used to get a tummy ache because I was so scared... that they were going to stand and start yelling and spitting," she said in a subsequent interview with The Associated Press on Monday.
In his statement, Mr Peres said: "No person has the right to threaten a girl, a woman or any person in any way. They are not the lords of this land."
BBC News - Israelis rally against ultra-Orthodox extremism



There was a case about a month ago of buses used by ultra-Orthodox Jews which forced women to sit in the back only.


The way I see it, its funny (in a good way) that Judaism can cover both ends of the spectrum. I know some very liberal Jews and here we have ultra conservative Jews. I don't think of any other religion that has such a wide spectrum. I mean, there aren't too many liberal Muslims, most that I've run into seem to fall under moderate or conservative. As for Christianity, I haven't heard of any group that calls for segregation of the sexes.



Can some of our Israeli FYMers give their perspective on this? Is it really a minority or a very influential minority that could hurt Israel?
 
I'm not Israeli or Jewish but I hope that the Israeli left and other secular influences, far from kow-towing to the demands of religious extremists, will continue to campaign vigorously for further secularisation of the country's constitution - already, of course, more secular than most in the Middle East - difficult though that may be given the forces that threaten the state, continue to work to protect the rights of gentile and for that matter non-observant Jews within Israel, and that the broader Israeli society will try to ignore these extremists in their midst.
 
Let me give you some insight from my own personal experience:

I have a friend who lives in a northern suburb of Tel-Aviv and on his street there is a Yeshiva (a learning institute for orthodox Jews). The street is comprised of mainly secular residents and there is peaceful co-existance between the students and the population - who for the most part stay out of each other's way and don't infringe on each other's lifestyles.

In the back of this street is a bus stop that travels from the neighborhood to the city of Ashdod where I live. The bus passes through the city of Bnei Brak (which is a city of orthodox residents) and the passengers on this bus are ALL orthodox religious people.

About a year ago, when I first took this bus home, I got on at the first stop, paid the driver and sat down right in back of him (which I usually do if the bus is empty). After about two stops, the driver advised me that I would have to move to the back because men and women are separated on this line. Without any hesitation at all, I got up and quietly moved back. I understood the nature of this particular bus line and out of respect I complied with the driver's request......the key word being RESPECT (as opposed to coersion).

Another example - near my house is a neighborhood of orthodox residents. Every Friday I go to a food store there to buy some chopped liver for the Sabbath. I go there dressed in slacks (which are forbidden for women according to Jewish Halacha) but I wear my long black coat over it and when I get to the store and see a lot of men there, I wait at the back until they leave in order to keep a respectable distance. This to me is not demeaning - it is being respectful of the customs of the neighborhood.

In orthodox Jewry there is separation between the sexes in synagogues, at weddings, and, yes, even on certain bus lines where the majority of passengers is orthodox.

I condemm the violence shown towards this 8 year old girl and, indeed towards ANYONE who is being threatened and attacked in a show of "conform or else" by the ultra orthodox people. I would just like to say that this kind of violence is NOT acceptable by Jewish standards and the right thing to do is to try to explain WHY there is separation between the sexes (not that I know myself.....). These zealots give Jews a bad name and only serve to further enhance the mistrust (and even hatred) of orthodox Jewry.

These ultra orthodox are the same kind of people as those who burn Israeli flags, declare Israel's independence day as a day of mourning, and who are welcome in Tehran with open arms because they deny Israel's right to exist.

Bottom line - again, the key word is RESPECT.
 
Do I need to show respect to intolerance and enforcement of inequality, though? If those men, and also the women, accept it as part of their way of life, well, it's up to them. But telling others that they have to give up their equality is nothing that I'm willing to accept.

Here in Kurdistan society is in some ways similar. There's many quite progressive people, but in general society still favours men a lot over here. Especially in the rural areas, FGM and forced marriage are still being practiced. Men can go out whenever they want, but for women it's difficult as many places are closed to them and if they break those societal rules they have to fear repercussions from their own family. People say, that's tradition, but do we have to accept, let alone, respect traditions that are such grave injustices based on nothing but gender? And power over the "weaker" gender?
 
I would just like to say that this kind of violence is NOT acceptable by Jewish standards

Interesting you should say that, given the systematic violence that Israeli Jews exert against Palestinians.

Fully expecting a "but they're firing rockets at us!" response, let me pre-empt that by showing you this table showing how many Jewish lives are really taken by Palestinian rockets and mortars. Two (2!) in the whole of 2011. Not actually a threat to the existence of the Jewish state, I would say.

So excuse me for not showing sympathy towards those affected by Israel's internal problems. Somehow I can't manage to care much about housing problems and orthodox-vs-secularist tensions when the occupation of the Palestinian territories goes on.
 
Bottom line - again, the key word is RESPECT.

What if it was a society where Jews and Christians weren't considered equal? You had to wear different clothes to show that you were a Jew and ride on the back of the bus, man or woman. Would this inequality be respected by you?
 
It's really ludicrous how restrictive religion tends to be towards women sometimes. Sorry, but I have to agree with BVS and Vincent and such-I couldn't stand living in a place that told me how I could and couldn't behave, dress, where to go, when to speak, all that sort of thing. It'd drive me nuts.

Respect must be earned, not automatically given. If there's no justifiable reason given as to why one should or shouldn't do something, it's hard for me to agree to or respect that idea/rule.
 
Yeeeeeeaah, I don't think I'd move to the back of the bus for anybody...

They can just catch the next bus if they don't want to sit next to me. I don't have cooties. :shrug:

You talk about having respect for them, but what sort of respect are they showing you? Would they make you move if you had a broken leg? Religion and orthodoxy is fine, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. Again, it's your prerogative to cater to their specific needs and desires, but you're not helping the problem.

When I visit my sort-of-orthodox Jewish family on a Saturday, I don't go around turning on their light switches, but they don't tell me I can't. I hope you can see the difference.
 
I have zero respect for clowns who treat women like that. Religion and tradition are the lamest, laziest excuses for conducting yourself that way. Take your head out of your ass and think for yourself instead of taking your queue from ignoramuses that existed thousands of years ago and had less knowledge about the world than your average 10 year old does these days
 
When I help out at the law office where my sister works, there's a lawyer there who is an Orthodox Jew. He refuses to shake hands or have any kind of physical contact with a woman. He told me he doesn't mean to offend, but I feel offended. What, a simple handshake would defile him? A woman is something dirty? If our hands slightly brushed, he would think about sex? Oh the horror!
 
When I help out at the law office where my sister works, there's a lawyer there who is an Orthodox Jew. He refuses to shake hands or have any kind of physical contact with a woman. He told me he doesn't mean to offend, but I feel offended. What, a simple handshake would defile him? A woman is something dirty? If our hands slightly brushed, he would think about sex? Oh the horror!

swap woman for black person. How do you think that would go over?
 
He's being stupid and you should just ignore him and move on. If, by any chance, he starts presenting you with different office supplies to use because he cannot touch what you have touched, then I suggest you go to the company fridge, lick his sandwich and then tell him you've done so after he has eaten it.
 
When I help out at the law office where my sister works, there's a lawyer there who is an Orthodox Jew. He refuses to shake hands or have any kind of physical contact with a woman. He told me he doesn't mean to offend, but I feel offended. What, a simple handshake would defile him? A woman is something dirty? If our hands slightly brushed, he would think about sex? Oh the horror!

I saw something about that on that "All-American Muslim" show a while back, too-there's a rule like that in there as well, and a girl freaked out about telling her husband she accidentally shook some guy's hand. It really weirded me out. Sorry we were born female, I guess :shrug:.

I also get a kick out of how that rule implies that men have no self-control. I've shook hands with men many a time, and...nothing's happened. Apparently I'm doing something wrong :wink:.
 
He's being stupid and you should just ignore him and move on. If, by any chance, he starts presenting you with different office supplies to use because he cannot touch what you have touched, then I suggest you go to the company fridge, lick his sandwich and then tell him you've done so after he has eaten it.

:lmao: Good one!
 
I saw something about that on that "All-American Muslim" show a while back, too-there's a rule like that in there as well, and a girl freaked out about telling her husband she accidentally shook some guy's hand. It really weirded me out. Sorry we were born female, I guess :shrug:.

I also get a kick out of how that rule implies that men have no self-control. I've shook hands with men many a time, and...nothing's happened. Apparently I'm doing something wrong :wink:.

I don't think this whole men avoiding women implies they have no self-control. I think it stems from some men being afraid of the influence of a woman. I've read about some radical Muslim groups forbidding women to speak around men or else the men would be aroused by the sound of their voices. I'm trying to put this all into the words I want to, but I really feel there are some men who hate women so much, they want to reduce them to nothing. It's as if they feel if a woman had the slightest power over them, they would feel less masculine. I hope I'm making sense.
 
I find it offensive that religion enjoys some sort of immunity from discrimination. "Sorry, I can't shake hands with a woman because I'm an Orthodox Jew" should be no different than "Sorry, I can't shake hands with a Jewish person because I'm a skinhead". How long do you suppose that one would last for?
 
I don't think this whole men avoiding women implies they have no self-control. I think it stems from some men being afraid of the influence of a woman. I've read about some radical Muslim groups forbidding women to speak around men or else the men would be aroused by the sound of their voices. I'm trying to put this all into the words I want to, but I really feel there are some men who hate women so much, they want to reduce them to nothing. It's as if they feel if a woman had the slightest power over them, they would feel less masculine. I hope I'm making sense.

I totally understand what you're saying. And unfortunately, I'd say you're spot on, too.

Frankly, a guy who freaks that much about the idea of a woman in power isn't a man at all.
 
I find it offensive that religion enjoys some sort of immunity from discrimination. "Sorry, I can't shake hands with a woman because I'm an Orthodox Jew" should be no different than "Sorry, I can't shake hands with a Jewish person because I'm a skinhead". How long do you suppose that one would last for?

Well one, I don't think a skinhead would apologize for that, and two, they are totally allowed to do so. You don't have to associate or be friendly, or look at, or talk to a black person if you don't want to. It's your right. It is NOT your right to say, move to the back of the bus, there are a bunch of men at the next stop.
That was my point. Religious fucktards can do whatever they want as long as they don't infringe on my rights. You're talking morality, and that will be something they will have to live with, and die with, since they believe in hell. :wink:
 
I think the bottom line of all religious dogma is to create more followers. Keep women down and use them as baby makers is what it boils down to. It's just a means to an end
 
Well one, I don't think a skinhead would apologize for that, and two, they are totally allowed to do so. You don't have to associate or be friendly, or look at, or talk to a black person if you don't want to. It's your right. It is NOT your right to say, move to the back of the bus, there are a bunch of men at the next stop.

At work though? Pearl encounters this shit from an employer. That's what I'm talking about
 
I totally understand what you're saying. And unfortunately, I'd say you're spot on, too.

Frankly, a guy who freaks that much about the idea of a woman in power isn't a man at all.

Good, and thanks.

This thread reminds me of college, where I ran into problems with both Orthodox Jews and conservative Muslims - all just for standing behind them. One time in the book store, where I was buying my textbooks, I stood behind a Muslim guy on the checkout line. No big deal, right? But he freaked out. He got off the line and started mumbling what could've been prayers.

Another time during a class demonstration where we all had to gather around the professor's desk, I stood behind an Orthodox Jew, who got livid that a woman stood too close to him. For the remainder of the semester, every time he saw me, he would give me these hateful looks.

Its a neurosis I believe, to hate women that much.
 
At work though? Pearl encounters this shit from an employer. That's what I'm talking about

:shrug:

Honestly, you wouldn't even begin to have a case. "Your honor, this man said he would not shake my hand."

Okay...?

There's no law that says you are forced to like or interact with others. He could ignore her all day and still be well within his legal rights. He is a jackass in all scenarios, however, and we should pity him.
 
I dunno. I think there would be grounds for a discrimination case. "My employer treats me as a lesser person because I'm black".

But regardless, I suppose. My point was more that society tends to tolerate the same horseshit as long as the tag of religion is attached to it
 
Good, and thanks.

This thread reminds me of college, where I ran into problems with both Orthodox Jews and conservative Muslims - all just for standing behind them. One time in the book store, where I was buying my textbooks, I stood behind a Muslim guy on the checkout line. No big deal, right? But he freaked out. He got off the line and started mumbling what could've been prayers.

Another time during a class demonstration where we all had to gather around the professor's desk, I stood behind an Orthodox Jew, who got livid that a woman stood too close to him. For the remainder of the semester, every time he saw me, he would give me these hateful looks.

Yeesh.

I don't get it. I don't get how people can just blindly accept acting this way because some religion told them they should, how they think this is reasonable behavior.

Its a neurosis I believe, to hate women that much.

"Neurosis" is a polite word for it, I think.
 
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