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Old 12-28-2011, 04:39 PM   #31
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I dunno. I think there would be grounds for a discrimination case. "My employer treats me as a lesser person because I'm black".

But regardless, I suppose. My point was more that society tends to tolerate the same horseshit as long as the tag of religion is attached to it
But he's not, really. He thinks she's a lesser person.

Sorry, Pearl. You are vastly superior.

Here's a scenario. My cousin is a cantor for his synagogue. He is overtly religious, but without the fancy getups. No fur hats.
He married an Orthodox-ish woman (sorry, I don't know the levels of orthodoxy), the kind who shaves her head and covers it with a scarf. The point being...?
Anyway, she was fucking lazy. Sat at home all day, did nothing. Probably depressed because God made her shave her fucking head. Long story short, they ended up divorcing. Said cousin now works two jobs to pay for the child support and her lazy ass who will not get a job. Again, probably because God won't let her.

I don't know what my point was, but I have to laugh at my cousin. He's going through hell because he married someone who took religion to the extreme.
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Old 12-28-2011, 04:50 PM   #32
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I think the bottom line of all religious dogma is to create more followers. Keep women down and use them as baby makers is what it boils down to. It's just a means to an end
Well, you cannot really convert fully to Judaism, and there's no way to become a Yezidi if you weren't born one.

But generally, yes, religions need to grow to ensure longevity. And income.

It's difficult to make any general statement about the role of women in Muslim societies as it is such a diverse one. If you have the image of countries such as Saudi-Arabia or Iran, then that is not true for almost any other predominantly Muslim country. I'm still trying to get behind all those layers here. On the one hand, women really have less rights and powers, on the other hand they are in high ranking positions, when my co-workers visit Germany for training all they do in their free time is looking for gifts for their girlfriends/wives and, in case it's not arranged by the parents, the woman will go around asking neighbours and friends if the wannabe husband is not smoking, not drinking and also otherwise taking care of himself. They will also choose you based on your income (not all, but it's still very common).
Then again, yes, some religious men will not shake hands with women and generally speak over them. And if you go out into the villages, it's way more traditional of course.
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:05 PM   #33
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There are legitimate health reasons for segregation. How does one know if a woman is dirty or clean?
They don't wear a sign that says it is that time of the month.
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:39 PM   #34
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I think the bottom line of all religious dogma is to create more followers. Keep women down and use them as baby makers is what it boils down to. It's just a means to an end


"keep women down"

I disagree as a Christian.

That rebel from Nazareth did a lot to free women.

Read the four Gospels. He broke all the religious rules concerning women.
The Gospels record women as discovering the empty tomb.
Women, at the time, were not regarded as legal witnesses.
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Old 12-30-2011, 11:07 PM   #35
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"keep women down"

I disagree as a Christian.

That rebel from Nazareth did a lot to free women.

Read the four Gospels. He broke all the religious rules concerning women.
The Gospels record women as discovering the empty tomb.
Women, at the time, were not regarded as legal witnesses.
Too bad his followers didn't follow.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:44 AM   #36
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Tensions rise in Israel between ultra-orthodox Jews and mainstream Israelis - CNN.com

It is spectacles like THESE that help fan the flames of resentment between secular and religious Jews.

This was outrageous and totally uncalled for and I condemm it with every fibre of my being. This is NOT the way to get the message across or to earn respect.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:26 AM   #37
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these people are being persecuted for their faith,
just like the Jews in Europe during WW2, that is their opinion
sure it is not that extreme yet,
a few broken windows ignored in the 1930s was not such a big thing, or so some people thought

who am I to disagree,
all they want is respect for their beliefs
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:18 AM   #38
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I dunno. I think there would be grounds for a discrimination case.
one would indeed think so... i mean, it's blatant sexism isn't it?

tolerance works both ways...
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:57 PM   #39
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The Haredim, who make up approximately 10% of the country according to government figures, are the fastest growing segment of the population and constitute a powerful voting block in Israel's coalition government. They have used this power to maintain government subsidies for working-age men to study the Torah full-time and protect the ability for ultra-orthodox Israelis to win easy exemptions from compulsory military service.
That's really the core problem right there, no? Your electoral system tends to produce unstable coalition governments in which fringe and minority parties wield influence disproportional to their numbers, which they then use to extract favors of the sort no one else would get.



Vincent, what are you doing in Kurdistan?
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:13 PM   #40
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The whole coalition government system seems to have that problem,

I have seen people from England defend it saying it is better because it allows for smaller parties to be heard and represented.

But, that upside does not out weigh the disproportionate power fringe groups can wield.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:45 PM   #41
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The whole coalition government system seems to have that problem,

I have seen people from England defend it saying it is better because it allows for smaller parties to be heard and represented.

But, that upside does not out weigh the disproportionate power fringe groups can wield.
I have heard the argument referred to in your second paragraph, but not from anyone in England.

Coalition governments in the UK are quite unusual. We only have one on this occasion owing to, pretty much, a statistical quirk. Actually, general elections in the UK use the first past the post system, similar to the US, which makes it difficult for representatives from smaller parties to be elected (no Green or BNP MP's, for example).
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:37 PM   #42
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We have nothing like 'first past the post' in the U S.
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:29 AM   #43
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^ Sure we do; that's what winner-take-all is. Our Congressional representatives are elected from single-member constituencies and whoever gets the most votes wins. The Electoral College is also a form of winner-take-all, albeit an indirect one (insofar as it's the means of electing the president).

In Israel, the entire country is a single constituency, using the party-list proportional representation method--you vote for parties rather than candidates, and seats are awarded in proportion to the total number of votes received, with an electoral threshold of 2% for Knesset representation. If a party gets enough votes to win a majority of Knesset seats, it won't need to form a coalition, but that's never happened in Israeli history.
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He married an Orthodox-ish woman (sorry, I don't know the levels of orthodoxy), the kind who shaves her head and covers it with a scarf. The point being...?
Actually I think that's a subethnic, rather than sectarian, thing--Hungarian and Ukrainian Jewish women traditionally did that, and haredi and Hasidic women from those communities often still do. (In fact many Hasidic women from those communities shave off their hair...then replace it with a wig.) I've never heard of Jewish women from other backgrounds doing that?
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Another time during a class demonstration where we all had to gather around the professor's desk, I stood behind an Orthodox Jew, who got livid that a woman stood too close to him. For the remainder of the semester, every time he saw me, he would give me these hateful looks.
For an NYC haredi man who observes negiah (restricted contact between the sexes), finding oneself temporarily too close for comfort to an unrelated woman is a many-times-a-day experience, not something that would normally be cause for hateful looks every time that particular woman is seen afterwards. He may just have been a flaky and spiteful individual who got his nose out of joint with you over something else.
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What, a simple handshake would defile him? A woman is something dirty?
If you were a haredi woman, you wouldn't shake unrelated men's hands, either; it goes both ways. Has nothing to do with anyone being "dirty," it's a particular (minority) interpretation of a particular component of the laws of tzniut (modesty).
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Old 01-05-2012, 01:36 PM   #44
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Vincent, what are you doing in Kurdistan?
The Kirkuk Center for Torture Victims - Home
I'm working for this organisation. It's a NGO providing medical, social and psychological treatment to men, women and children who have become victims of torture, (domestic) violence, chemical attacks and other forms of human rights abuses. We are also promoting the rights of the women and the rights of the children, going into schools and juvenile prisons and teaching about these issues as well as offering our services. Centers are in North Iraq/Kurdistan.
My work is mainly administrative, coordinating things, doing promotions, looking for future support, teaching English and helping in setting up new projects. Besides, I'm using this as an opportunity to gain some valuable experience for myself, and to see some of this country.
We are promoting tolerance, equality and respect for other religions, gender etc., so it's a bit offputting to see such behaviour now becoming more prominent in a country such as Israel.

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The whole coalition government system seems to have that problem,

I have seen people from England defend it saying it is better because it allows for smaller parties to be heard and represented.

But, that upside does not out weigh the disproportionate power fringe groups can wield.
Some countries have that problem, others not. I think it has to do with factors such as heterogeneity of society, the actual size of this fringe, but also how many parties you allow into parliament. E.g. Germany has a five percent hurdle, and Israel one of two percent. But ten percent, even though being a minority, is not even such a small number. How many people, for example, could be counted as actively engaged in the tea party movement? Didn't they also have some disproportionate influence on the mid-term elections at least?

I'm amazed, some people must really live in an alternative universe. I cannot explain their twisted sense of reality otherwise. They are spitting at and attacking a young girl in her own neighbourhood because she is using a boardwalk, or insulting a young woman because she is sitting in the front row of a bus, and then they go and cry of being harassed and persecuted the same way Jews were by the Nazis. Unbelievable.
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:50 PM   #45
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The Kirkuk Center for Torture Victims - Home
I'm working for this organisation. It's a NGO providing medical, social and psychological treatment to men, women and children who have become victims of torture, (domestic) violence, chemical attacks and other forms of human rights abuses. We are also promoting the rights of the women and the rights of the children, going into schools and juvenile prisons and teaching about these issues as well as offering our services. Centers are in North Iraq/Kurdistan.
My work is mainly administrative, coordinating things, doing promotions, looking for future support, teaching English and helping in setting up new projects. Besides, I'm using this as an opportunity to gain some valuable experience for myself, and to see some of this country.
Wow! Fantastic! Congratulations on obtaining the position. What an incredible opportunity, to get to know a (relatively) remote part of the world while being part of an effort like that at the same time. I hope both will prove as deeply rewarding for you as possible.

(ETA--Just saw the link you posted to your photos in LS...very nice. The dance video was interesting, reminds me very much of the Greek 'hasapiko' dance.)
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Some countries have that problem, others not. I think it has to do with factors such as heterogeneity of society, the actual size of this fringe, but also how many parties you allow into parliament. E.g. Germany has a five percent hurdle, and Israel one of two percent. But ten percent, even though being a minority, is not even such a small number.
It should be noted that the majority of that 10% (i.e. haredim) don't at all support coercing people into compliance with their particular religious practices. Still, the history of Israeli governments coddling the haredim in order to secure their political support is a key factor enabling this kind of in-your-face entitlement mentality to take root and flourish. The increasingly reactionary nature of Israeli ultra-Orthodoxy over the past couple decades is clearly a factor, too--physical contact restrictions and headcoverings are nothing new (for either sex), but requiring women to walk on a separate secondary sidewalk for example (or move to the back of the bus), as certain neighborhoods have done, is unprecedented; it takes a set of practices that are meant to devolve equally on both sexes and explicitly shifts them towards institutionalized inferiority of women. There's even a phrase they're using now to describe it, hadarat nashim ("exclusion of women"), as if it were some sort of rabbinic term--it isn't, it was only coined a couple years ago and has nothing to do with Jewish modesty doctrines.

That's a good point about heterogeneity; virtually all Israeli Jews are no more than a few generations removed, if that, from a longstanding diaspora community somewhere else, one with its own distinct customs and worldview in everything from language to family structure to political culture to methodologies for interpreting Jewish law and so on. While that doesn't necessarily make the sense of shared nationhood any less real or palpable, it does inevitably contribute to a fairly unique propensity towards fractious domestic politics, even without the pressures of territorial conflict and the normal variations in degrees of religiosity, etc. you might find in any number of countries.
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and then they go and cry of being harassed and persecuted the same way Jews were by the Nazis. Unbelievable.
As AchtungBono alluded to earlier, those protesters came primarily from the Neturei Karta and Toldot Aharon Hasid sects, which are (among other things) anti-Zionist groups who teach that the Holocaust was divinely sanctioned punishment, observe Israeli Independence Day by burning Israeli flags, and have previously sent members to participate in Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial conferences. So above and beyond any of the aforementioned factors, these types already hold most of their compatriots in contempt anyway.
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