Israel attacks Gaza

[popshopper]

You're right. Our conflict with our Palestinian neighbors started before this campaign.....like 60 years(!!) or so ago. We have never had a moment's peace since the Jewish people returned to its ancient homeland and established the state in 1948. The very next day we were invaded by all of the neigboring Arab states who, even then, refused to accept our existance - and this was BEFORE Israel had any land to give back. They just didn't want us here and tried time and again to erase us from existance. The conflict didn't start in 1967 and it certainly won't end with this campaign.

Here's a brief history:

The Palestinian problem could have been solved 60 years ago if the Arabs living in Palestine had accepted the UN partition plan and put down their arms against us. The Palestinian state would have been created 60 years ago alongside Israel and the Palestinian people could have been ruling themselves and providing for themselves.

There were so many missed opportunities to solve the middle-east crisis - just to name a few:

1. After the six-day war in June 1967 when Israel captured the west bank, the Golan Heights and the Sinai Penninsula. These terrirotories were captured in a defensive war which we won by the grace of G-d. These territories were never officially annexed by Israel and we've always said that we're waiting to negotiate their return in exchange for peace - which of course was out of the question for the Arab countries, until Egypt took the bold step of making peace with us in 1979 - and as a result we gave back the Sinai Penninsula.

2. Another missed opportunity (in a chain of missed opportunities) came in 1993 when Israel recognized the PLO and the Oslo agreements were signed, granting the Palestinians autonomy leading up to an eventual Palestinian state which was supposed to be established by 1998. While the Fatah party laid down their arms, Hamas raised the mantle of radical Islam and waged a murderous campaign of suicide bombers against our population.

3. In 2000, Israel reached an unprecedented decision to sign an agreement which would effectively return 97% of the west bank to the Palestinians, including dismantling the settlements. Yassar Arafat turned us down cold and missed a true once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

4. In August 2005, after realizing that we had absolutely no one to talk to on the Palestinian side after Hamas took power in Gaza, Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip, dismantling settlements and relinquishing the land to the Palestinians. Israel left all the infrastructure intact and the Palestinian government could have used the land to resettle the poor people of Gaza City and to take them out of the squalor of the refugee camps…but no….they preferred to use perfectly good land to place rocket launchers and fire them into the nearby city of Sderot – it was much more important for the terrorist government to fight us instead of taking care of the needs of their own people.

5. Iran is pledging hundreds of millions of dollars to the Palestinians. Do you think it’s for food and medicine? Think again. The Hamas government will use this money to arm themselves with more sophisticated weapons and long-range missiles that will put us AND them in grave danger.

I could go on and on but I think you get the point. Time after time after time Israel has tried to reach agreements with the Palestinian governments, to no avail.


You're also right about Israel being founded on violence and bloodshed - as was every other country in the world (including the United States). Independence isn't achieved by folk dancing and cotton candy - it is won by the blood of the people and the courage of knowing that our cause is just.

As for bombing hotels......I would suggest that you read this account of the bombing of the King David hotel in Jerusalem by the Jewish resistance and then tell me that it's the same thing as strapping bombs on people to blow themselves up in restaurants and stores and busses.

The Bombing of the King David Hotel

As for civillian massacres, I assume you're referring to Dir Yassin - here's something else for you to read and see:

Israel Matzav: The truth about Dir Yassin


I suppose the United States won it's independence by having tea and crumpets with the British, right?

EVERY country is founded in violence and struggle - the only difference being that Israel is STILL locked in a daily struggle for survival and we are still defending ourselves against our enemies.

"Independence isn't achieved by folk dancing and cotton candy - it is won by the blood of the people and the courage of knowing that our cause is just." So I take it the palestinian's cause isn't just because...

So it's ok for you take land via terrorism, but not ok for Palestinians who are evil thugs? Just trying to work out the logic.

And the land wasn't yours, there were people living on it, your people had bothered with it for centuries, you murdered your way into then used the guilt of the western powers to keep it.

The six day war wasn't defensive, you attacked first in response to military build up by Egypt and a blockade of the Straits of Tiran. Of course when you blockade something it's in the name of peace.

 

[Irvine511]

the last page or so had been illuminating -- both for historical content (and how much that content is contested) and also for the fact that the arguments, for lack of a better word, always seem to fly past one another.

 

[Irvine511]

"Independence isn't achieved by folk dancing and cotton candy - it is won by the blood of the people and the courage of knowing that our cause is just." So I take it the palestinian's cause isn't just because...

So it's ok for you take land via terrorism, but not ok for Palestinians who are evil thugs? Just trying to work out the logic.

And the land wasn't yours, there were people living on it, your people had bothered with it for centuries, you murdered your way into then used the guilt of the western powers to keep it.

The six day war wasn't defensive, you attacked first in response to military build up by Egypt and a blockade of the Straits of Tiran. Of course when you blockade something it's in the name of peace.

who actually created Israel in the first place? you make it sound like there was some Jewish version of the Normandy invasion.

 

[AchtungBono]

You've got the 5th biggest standing army in the world, complete air control, funded with US's taxpayers money and all the latest technology against an enemy who doesn't even have 1 tank. Hamas are of little threat.

You don't let Journalists in because it makes killing civilians easier.

Al Qaida doesn't have any tanks either - all they had was 19 people who managed to murder 3,000 innocent American civillians! What does the size of an army have to do with a threat? Hamas doesn't need tanks or airplanes to fight us - all they need are disillusioned and easily brainwashed young people who are willing to strap bombs on themselves and blow themselves up in order to kill as many Israelis as possible.

And you are SO wrong about making it "easier to kill civillians". We are appalled by the high civillian death toll and it breaks my heart to see the pictures of the dead children - but when Hamas uses civillians as human shields that is the result.

What you said doesn't make sense and goes against everything we believe in. If we were really so "gung ho" and eager to kill civillians, don't you think we would have wiped Gaza off the map a long time ago without giving a shit about what anybody says?

 

[Irvine511]

but when Hamas uses civillians as human shields that is the result.

they also make sure to parade them in front of the cameras. Hamas prevents the burial, or even preparation of the bodies for burial, until the bodies are used as props.

 

[AliEnvy]

they also make sure to parade them in front of the cameras. Hamas prevents the burial, or even preparation of the bodies for burial, until the bodies are used as props.

Yes, yes they do. Hamas' tactics are despicable. What's your point?

 

[popshopper]

And you are SO wrong about making it "easier to kill civillians". We are appalled by the high civillian death toll and it breaks my heart to see the pictures of the dead children - but when Hamas uses civillians as human shields that is the result.

What you said doesn't make sense and goes against everything we believe in. If we were really so "gung ho" and eager to kill civillians, don't you think we would have wiped Gaza off the map a long time ago without giving a shit about what anybody says?

Well it doesn't seem to stop you? Does it.The IDF have killed thousands more than the Hamas has managed. As the Geneva conventions states the use of human shields don't remove the requirement on the part of the attackers to avoid loss of human life. Even if weapons are stored in a school or hospital they are still civilian buildings and should not be attacked.

Indiscriminate attacks are those which are not directed at a specific military objective or those which use a method of attack that cannot be directed at or limited to a specific military objective. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

This includes area bombardment, where a number of clearly separated military objectives are treated as a single military objective, and where there is a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5a)

This also includes attacks where the expected incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects is excessive to the military advantage anticipated. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5b)

Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

Combatants must distinguish between civilian and military objects and attack only military targets. (Protocol I, Art. 48)


If there is any doubt as to whether a place of worship, house, school or other civilian object is used for military purposes, then it will be presumed not to be a legitimate military target. (Protocol I, Art. 52, Sec. 3)

If it becomes apparent that an objective in an attack is not a military one, or if that attack could cause incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects, then the attack must be called off. (Protocol I, Art. 57)

And in many occasions there's not been a use of human shields like yesterday, yet the Civilians die in their hundreds.

I don't think the IDF want to kill civilians, but they don't mind if they do and they don't go out of their way to avoid it. They rely on ineffective bombing raids which indiscriminately kill because its easier for them and they don't want to risk troops on the ground. But the results are what matter and as professional armies go there's none better at killing civilians than the IDF.

 

[popshopper]

who actually created Israel in the first place? you make it sound like there was some Jewish version of the Normandy invasion.

Of course there wasn't but In 1922 11% of Palestine was Jewish, in 1942 that number was 33%. Just how did 33% get 70% of the land?

 

[AchtungBono]

"Independence isn't achieved by folk dancing and cotton candy - it is won by the blood of the people and the courage of knowing that our cause is just." So I take it the palestinian's cause isn't just because...

So it's ok for you take land via terrorism, but not ok for Palestinians who are evil thugs? Just trying to work out the logic.

And the land wasn't yours, there were people living on it, your people had bothered with it for centuries, you murdered your way into then used the guilt of the western powers to keep it.

The six day war wasn't defensive, you attacked first in response to military build up by Egypt and a blockade of the Straits of Tiran. Of course when you blockade something it's in the name of peace.

I never said that the Palestinian cause wasn't just - quite the opposite. I've outlined all the efforts that Israel has made over the years in order for the Palestinians to achieve their goal of statehood. Right from the beginning we wanted to have a Palestinian state next to us - it was THEM who have refused time and again.

Personally, I believe that the ordinary Palestinian man or woman on the street yearns for peace as much as we do. Too bad it's the leaders who instigate and inflame the situation.

+++

As for the land - do I really need to bring up the United States and the indians? Or Australia and the Aborigines??
The Americans had no claim whatsoever on the land when the settlers first arrived - the Indians were there first. The British had no claim on Australia when they chose it as a dumping ground for their convicts - the Aborigines were there first. Moreover, the white men in Australia didn't even consider the Aborigines as human beings until 1967 when they first got the right to vote and were no longer considered the "flora and fauna" of Australia - can you imagine?

With Israel it is quite different - this has always been our ancient homeland from biblical times when the land was promised by G-d to Abraham and his sons. The land was conquered time and again by various civilizations (some less civil than others...lol) but there was ALWAYS a Jewish presence in the land of Israel and a yearning in our hearts to return to the land of our forefathers untill, finally, in 1948 the Jews reclaimed this land as our own.

As for the six day war - here is some more reading material for you:

The Six-Day War

 

[AchtungBono]

Well it doesn't seem to stop you? Does it.The IDF have killed thousands more than the Hamas has managed. As the Geneva conventions states the use of human shields don't remove the requirement on the part of the attackers to avoid loss of human life. Even if weapons are stored in a school or hospital they are still civilian buildings and should not be attacked.

Indiscriminate attacks are those which are not directed at a specific military objective or those which use a method of attack that cannot be directed at or limited to a specific military objective. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

This includes area bombardment, where a number of clearly separated military objectives are treated as a single military objective, and where there is a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5a)

This also includes attacks where the expected incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects is excessive to the military advantage anticipated. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5b)

Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

Combatants must distinguish between civilian and military objects and attack only military targets. (Protocol I, Art. 48)


If there is any doubt as to whether a place of worship, house, school or other civilian object is used for military purposes, then it will be presumed not to be a legitimate military target. (Protocol I, Art. 52, Sec. 3)

If it becomes apparent that an objective in an attack is not a military one, or if that attack could cause incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects, then the attack must be called off. (Protocol I, Art. 57)

And in many occasions there's not been a use of human shields like yesterday, yet the Civilians die in their hundreds.

I don't think the IDF want to kill civilians, but they don't mind if they do and they don't go out of their way to avoid it. They rely on ineffective bombing raids which indiscriminately kill because its easier for them and they don't want to risk troops on the ground. But the results are what matter and as professional armies go there's none better at killing civilians than the IDF.

The articles of the Geneva convention do not apply in this case because it is not one country fighting another country - it is one country fighting against a terrorist organization and to accord it any consideration under international law would be to legitimize a band of thugs and murderers.

Which is why I believe that the UN security council should be on OUR side instead of the side of the terrorists who are attacking a member state.

 

[popshopper]

The articles of the Geneva convention do not apply in this case because it is not one country fighting another country - it is one country fighting against a terrorist organization and to accord it any consideration under international law would be to legitimize a band of thugs and murderers.

Which is why I believe that the UN security council should be on OUR side instead of the side of the terrorists who are attacking a member state.

It matters to the civilians who are by and large the ones dying. It really doesn't matter whether you are attacking an army, a terrorist organisation or a cow. There are rights civilians should have which the IDF do not afford them, and no it doesn't matter what Hamas do, they're terrorists which the IDF claim not to be, you want to be treated like a civilised nation then act like one. Do don't have to afford Hamas any rights to avoid killing civilians. The problem as it is is the IDF think so little of a palestinian civilians life they would bomb an entire block to take out one mortar even the US doesn't do that in Iraq they go in with troops. You've got the 5th biggest army in the world you could try actually sending them in to take out the terrorists.

 

[AchtungBono]

It matters to the civilians who are by and large the ones dying. It really doesn't matter whether you are attacking an army, a terrorist organisation or a cow. There are rights civilians should have which the IDF do not afford them, and no it doesn't matter what Hamas do, they're terrorists which the IDF claim not to be, you want to be treated like a civilised nation then act like one. Do don't have to afford Hamas any rights to avoid killing civilians. The problem as it is is the IDF think so little of a palestinian civilians life they would bomb an entire block to take out one mortar even the US doesn't do that in Iraq they go in with troops. You've got the 5th biggest army in the world you could try actually sending them in to take out the terrorists.

As we speak, our army is engaging the enemy on the ground and thousands more reservists are on the way.

It's a lot easier to avoid civillian casualties in ground combat than from the air - which is why Israel has limited its air strikes once the ground offensive began.
Mainly because we DO care about civillian life.

 

[AliEnvy]

I never said that the Palestinian cause wasn't just - quite the opposite. I've outlined all the efforts that Israel has made over the years in order for the Palestinians to achieve their goal of statehood. Right from the beginning we wanted to have a Palestinian state next to us - it was THEM who have refused time and again.

Because?

Perhaps what Israel perceives as generosity is not what the Palestinians (and other Arabs) define as autonomy.

As for the land - do I really need to bring up the United States and the indians? Or Australia and the Aborigines??
The Americans had no claim whatsoever on the land when the settlers first arrived - the Indians were there first. The British had no claim on Australia when they chose it as a dumping ground for their convicts - the Aborigines were there first. Moreover, the white men in Australia didn't even consider the Aborigines as human beings until 1967 when they first got the right to vote and were no longer considered the "flora and fauna" of Australia - can you imagine?

With Israel it is quite different - this has always been our ancient homeland from biblical times when the land was promised by G-d to Abraham and his sons. The land was conquered time and again by various civilizations (some less civil than others...lol) but there was ALWAYS a Jewish presence in the land of Israel and a yearning in our hearts to return to the land of our forefathers untill, finally, in 1948 the Jews reclaimed this land as our own.

So this basically is saying what Israel is doing is its God-given right and we shouldn't critisize or interfere because of the similar actions of our forefathers for less than divine motivation?

Seriously?

 

[AchtungBono]

Because?

Perhaps what Israel perceives as generosity is not what the Palestinians (and other Arabs) define as autonomy.



So this basically is saying what Israel is doing is its God-given right and we shouldn't critisize or interfere because of the similar actions of our forefathers for less than divine motivation?

Seriously?

We've never discussed "autonomy" for the Palestinians - that was at the beginning. We're now discussing full statehood in territories returned through good faith negotiations and not through violence.

No, I AM saying that there is a double standard where Israel is concerned. We're required to give back our own land whereas other countries aren't asked to give back land that wasn't theirs to begin with.

I'm not trying to be argumentative - just stating the facts.

 

[AliEnvy]

We've never discussed "autonomy" for the Palestinians - that was at the beginning. We're now discussing full statehood in territories returned through good faith negotiations and not through violence.

What is "full statehood" in the absence of autonomy?

No, I AM saying that there is a double standard where Israel is concerned. We're required to give back our own land whereas other countries aren't asked to give back land that wasn't theirs to begin with.

I'm not trying to be argumentative - just stating the facts.

If there was the scale of violence and disregard for human rights in the US, Britain or Australia that we see in your disputed territories then perhaps we could compare. But since there isn't, it makes for a weak argument.

 

[AchtungBono]

I would like to thank you all for this very interesting and important exchange.

I will continue to address any of your comments to the best of my ability tomorrow. It is now 6 o'clock pm and I have to go home...lol.

I truly appreciate this debate and your interest.

Thanks and good night.

 

[AliEnvy]

Goodnight. Stay safe.

 

[purpleoscar]

YouTube - Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale FL

Ft. Lauderdale Pro-Hamas protest. This particular group thinks Israel shouldn't exist. This is why I don't expect any outside leaders can actually achieve peace between both sides.

 

[Irvine511]

It matters to the civilians who are by and large the ones dying. It really doesn't matter whether you are attacking an army, a terrorist organisation or a cow. There are rights civilians should have which the IDF do not afford them, and no it doesn't matter what Hamas do, they're terrorists which the IDF claim not to be, you want to be treated like a civilised nation then act like one. Do don't have to afford Hamas any rights to avoid killing civilians. The problem as it is is the IDF think so little of a palestinian civilians life they would bomb an entire block to take out one mortar even the US doesn't do that in Iraq they go in with troops. You've got the 5th biggest army in the world you could try actually sending them in to take out the terrorists.

so does the blame, then, for all these civilian lie in the hands of Hamas?

we know Hamas loves dead Palestinians. why would they not do things to ensure they get as many of them as possible.

there's no question it's the Palestinians who are suffering the most, by far. i'm just not sure that it's the IDF that's inflicting the most suffering.

 

[AliEnvy]

YouTube - Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale FL

Ft. Lauderdale Pro-Hamas protest. This particular group thinks Israel shouldn't exist. This is why I don't expect any outside leaders can actually achieve peace between both sides.

Did I miss something or was the only mention of "pro-hamas" in the title of the video? Do angry signs saying "Israel go to hell" mean that they're saying Israel shouldn't exist?

Insinuating support for Palestinians is support for Hamas or terrorism is an intimidation tactic similar to "unpatriotic Americans" over opposition to the invastion Iraq that has worn really, really thin over the last number of years.

There will always be extremist jihad nutjobs. Ongoing Israeli oppression is increasing their numbers and strength.

If outside leaders (primarily the US) wanted peace, there would be peace.

 

[purpleoscar]

There will always be extremist jihad nutjobs. Ongoing Israeli oppression is increasing their numbers and strength.

I think Iran is.

 

[AliEnvy]

so does the blame, then, for all these civilian lie in the hands of Hamas?

we know Hamas loves dead Palestinians. why would they not do things to ensure they get as many of them as possible.

there's no question it's the Palestinians who are suffering the most, by far. i'm just not sure that it's the IDF that's inflicting the most suffering.

Irvine, from your earlier posts mentioning what you saw as flagrant anti-semitism and your personal experience with oppression, I can understand your sympathy and empathy for the plight of the Jews (as distinct from the state of Israel).

Your tenacity in defending the human rights of gay people is worthy of tremendous respect so I find it really puzzling that as a human rights advocate and a crusader against oppression, you seem uncertain about who is inflicting the most suffering.

I don't mean to offend you and if I have, my apologies. Your opinion, as everyone's is valid, I just find it surprising.

 

[AliEnvy]

I think Iran is.

And they can't do better than antiquated, homemade rockets?

This is what hundreds of millions of dollars (mentioned by AchtungBono) from Iran to Hamas is buying?

 

[Irvine511]

Insinuating support for Palestinians is support for Hamas or terrorism is an intimidation tactic similar to "unpatriotic Americans" over opposition to the invastion Iraq that has worn really, really thin over the last number of years.

totally agree with you here.

If outside leaders (primarily the US) wanted peace, there would be peace.

don't agree with you here.

 

[purpleoscar]

And they can't do better than antiquated, homemade rockets?

This is what hundreds of millions of dollars (mentioned by AchtungBono) from Iran to Hamas is buying?

Iran is working on their special bomb for later.

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, from your earlier posts mentioning what you saw as flagrant anti-semitism and your personal experience with oppression, I can understand your sympathy and empathy for the plight of the Jews (as distinct from the state of Israel).

Your tenacity in defending the human rights of gay people is worthy of tremendous respect so I find it really puzzling that as a human rights advocate and a crusader against oppression, you seem uncertain about who is inflicting the most suffering.

I don't mean to offend you and if I have, my apologies. Your opinion, as everyone's is valid, I just find it surprising.

i think i've mentioned several times that i think it is the Palestinians who are suffering the most, no question. but i think Hamas makes them suffer. i think Hamas is a murderous theocratic mafioso organization that uncovers bodies in the morgue so they can parade them through the streets. i think Hamas wants more dead Palestinians so they can wail about "no justice, no peace."

but i can understand how my anger towards Hamas, and my honest (i swear, i'm just trying to be as honest as i can) attempt to understand the Israeli perspective (combined with, yes, what i did see as actual anti-semitism and reactive anti-americanism in Europe a few years ago -- i have video of arab kids wearing NY Yankee hats in Glasgow burning an American flag and stamping it out with their Nikes -- so, in my experience, the burden of unpacking legitimate criticism of Israel from anti-semitism is on the critic ... gosh, that's convoluded), all results in my coming off as kind of schizophrenic on this issue.

but, i think that's also due to the fact that it's *this* particular issue, and the fact that *this* particular issue gets, in my opinion, way, way more press coverage than it deserves. it's just an impossible situation.

did we all notice that 40 people were killed in a suicide bombing in Iraq over the weekend?

Dozens killed in Iraqi pilgrimage suicide bombing - CNN.com

 

[AliEnvy]

reactive anti-americanism in Europe a few years ago -- i have video of arab kids wearing NY Yankee hats in Glasgow burning an American flag and stamping it out with their Nikes

did we all notice that 40 people were killed in a suicide bombing in Iraq over the weekend?

Both are a result of US foreign policy and neither are impossible. Complicated, but not impossible.

 

[anitram]

i think i've mentioned several times that i think it is the Palestinians who are suffering the most, no question. but i think Hamas makes them suffer. i think Hamas is a murderous theocratic mafioso organization that uncovers bodies in the morgue so they can parade them through the streets. i think Hamas wants more dead Palestinians so they can wail about "no justice, no peace."

You could have made a similar argument that the IRA were murderous thugs several decades ago and that they were the cause of a lot of Irish suffering, but nevertheless, the British didn't go and bomb the fuck out of Belfast in order to ensure their own safety (and let's not forget, English citizens did die in numerous bombings in London).

And as for the journalists - don't buy that argument at all. They aren't asking to be embedded with Israeli soldiers; they are asking for basic access to the region which has been completely blockaded for weeks.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Published on Wednesday, January 7, 2009 by TruthDig.com
Israeli Voices for Peace

by Amy Goodman

Israel’s assault on Gaza, by air, sea and now land, has killed (at the time of this writing) more than 600 Palestinians, with more than 2,700 injured. Ten Israelis have been killed, three of them Israeli soldiers killed by friendly fire. Beyond the deaths and injuries, the people of Gaza are suffering a dire humanitarian crisis that is dismissed by the Israeli government. There is, however, Israeli opposition to the military assault.

Israeli professor Neve Gordon is chair of the department of politics and government at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in southern Israel, the region most impacted by the Hamas rockets.

Speaking over the phone from Beersheba, Gordon said: “We just had a rocket about an hour ago not far from our house. My two children have been sleeping in a bomb shelter for the past week. And yet, I think what Israel is doing is outrageous. ... The problem is that most Israelis say Israel left the Gaza Strip three years ago and Hamas is still shooting rockets at us. They forget the details. The detail is that Israel maintains sovereignty. The detail is that the Palestinians live in a cage. The detail is that they don’t get basic foodstuff, that they don’t get electricity, that they don’t get water. And when you forget those kinds of details, all you say is, ‘Why are they still shooting at us?’ That’s what the media here has been pumping them with, then you think this war is rational. If you look at what’s been going on in the Gaza Strip in the past three years and you see what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians, you would think that the Palestinian resistance is rational. And that’s what’s missing in the mainstream media here.”

Gordon attended a large peace march last weekend in Tel Aviv with more than 10,000 other Israelis. Longtime Israeli peace activist Uri Avnery was there. He called the invasion “a criminal war, because, on top of everything else it is openly and shamelessly part of Ehud Barak’s and Tzipi Livni’s election campaign. I accuse Ehud Barak of exploiting the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] soldiers in order to get more Knesset seats. I accuse Tzipi Livni of advocating mutual slaughter in order to become prime minister.” Israel’s elections will be in February.

The assault strengthens right-wing Likud Party leader and former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, a foremost hawk and leading candidate for prime minister. While Netanyahu fully supports the attack on Gaza, his nephew, Jonathan Ben-Artzi, is an Israeli conscientious objector who was court-martialed and imprisoned for a year and a half. He spoke to me from Providence, R.I., where he is a student at Brown University.

“I’m speaking ... not as anyone’s nephew but ... as an Israeli, trying to speak out to Americans to tell them you don’t have to support Israel blindly. Not everything that Israel does is holy ... sometimes you have to speak firmly to Israel and tell us, tell our government, stop doing this.”

Gideon Levy is a Jewish journalist with the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. He told me: “I think that Israel had this legitimacy to protect its citizens in the southern part of Israel ... but this doing something does not mean this brutal and violent operation. ... I believe we could have got to a new truce without this bloodshed. Immediately to send dozens of jets to bomb a total helpless civilian society with hundreds of bombs—just today, they were burying five sisters. I mean, this is unheard of. This cannot go on like this.”

But it is. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency, UNRWA, in Gaza opened up schools to provide shelter, since Gazans, trapped in this narrow strip of land, have no place to flee. Christopher Gunness of UNRWA told me that the agency provided the coordinates of the schools to the Israeli military. Nevertheless, at least two schools have been hit by Israeli strikes in the past 24 hours. Three people were killed at the Asma elementary school. More than 30 are reported dead and more than 55 injured at the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp in Gaza.
While Israeli planes drop pamphlets urging Palestinians to leave, the 1.5 million residents of the Gaza Strip, perhaps the most densely populated place on Earth, have no place to run, no place to hide. Calls for an immediate cease-fire are ignored by Israel and blocked by the U.S. government. It is not clear what the Obama administration will do—but the people of Gaza can’t wait until the inauguration. There must be a cease-fire now. And that’s just the beginning.

 

[Irvine511]

You could have made a similar argument that the IRA were murderous thugs several decades ago and that they were the cause of a lot of Irish suffering, but nevertheless, the British didn't go and bomb the fuck out of Belfast in order to ensure their own safety (and let's not forget, English citizens did die in numerous bombings in London).

was the stated goal of the IRA the total annihilation of the United Kingdom?

again, i don't think that what Israel is doing right now is good, i am not applauding IDF actions, either strategically or morally or by whatever standard. but i don't think you've provided a good analogy above.