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Old 01-03-2009, 02:11 PM   #61
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Israeli ground troops have now invaded the Gaza Strip.

God help us all.
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Old 01-03-2009, 05:32 PM   #62
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We're not the ones that need help.

It is just a few Palestinians, and they are the wrong kind of Palestinians.


More importantly, there are reports that some IDF have been killed.

I = Israeli




I hope the IDF does not lose and U S made Apache Helicopters, those thing are expensive.
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Old 01-03-2009, 06:13 PM   #63
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I am not surprised about this development.

One of the big criticisms of the Lebanon war in 2006 was that there was no ground invasion and the war dragged on with terrible PR for Israel and no victory, actual or imaginary to speak of at the end.

Even this time around, the criticisms of a lack of ground action began almost immediately.
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Old 01-03-2009, 06:28 PM   #64
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I think no one is surprised. It's getting boring and will never stop over there, if it's not the israéliens firing off rockets etc then it's hamaz doing it.

And if there is a so called "weapons silence" it will be broken be either for a stupid reason. This has been dragging on for so long i wonder if it will ever end. As said it like the "repeat" button is stuck over there.
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Old 01-03-2009, 06:28 PM   #65
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there's really no answer here. so Israel moves in, kicks the shit out of Hamas, moves out, and Hamas stands back up and taunts them for more by lobbing a few more missiles.

rinse, repeat.



i don't know what to say about all this.
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Old 01-04-2009, 01:44 AM   #66
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A UN-enforced ceasefire, backed by international sanctions for violations from either side, calling for an end to all violent attacks (including targeted assassinations by Israel and missile fire from Gaza); the reopening of Gaza's border with Israel and resumption of normal trade, subject to inspections; a prisoner exchange; and rapid dismantling of the illegal Israeli settlements wouldn't make a bad preamble for a return to negotiations on an independent Palestinian state. And an initial good-faith gesture from Israel in the direction of eventual, inevitable compromises on right of return (a limited annual refugee return quota, and/or establishment of an international fund to help with the costs of resettling refugees) would certainly help to facilitate that process.
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:29 AM   #67
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The issue is fundamentally about human rights - indeed, the most fundamental of all human rights, which is the right to property.
Millions of people, in multiple locations and of multiple backgrounds, were permanently displaced by the various catastrophes accompanying WWII and its immediate aftermath. Many of them--actually, statistically probably most of them--never got anything in return, save for the 'opportunity' to scrabble their way back up the ladder in some new location with nothing more than the clothes on their back to start with. Few governments, including the nascent Israeli government, were in much of a mood to give a flying fuck about the property rights of anyone they didn't consider their own. (And incidentally, property is not the most fundamental human right; life is. Because when all your relatives, all your friends, and all your neighbors are dead, and whichever few others survive from the community that in fact constituted your attachment to the place you once called home have been scattered to the four corners, then you most likely aren't going to give jack-shit anymore about that haunted plot of land in ____.) There are still compromises to be made, hopes to be reasonably held out, moral obligations to be insisted upon; there always are; but for better and for worse, that particular era is over and it's never coming back.
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Old 01-04-2009, 04:20 AM   #68
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Dear Friends,

I'm sorry I've been rather remiss in my postings and replies to your messages. It hasn't been easy times for us here. I live in the city of Ashdod which has sustained a few missile attacks over the past week (some landing close to my house). I live with my older sister and elderly mother and it's really not easy to live in such a constant state of alertness 24/7.

To make things worse, we don't have a shelter where we live so we are all sleeping in our living room downstairs - which saves time when we only have 45 seconds to take cover when the siren sounds. During the day we keep our windows closed (because it's cold) but when the siren sounds my sister and I scramble to open all the windows just to make sure the glass doesn't shatter if a missile should fall nearby.

Let me assure you that we are ok and we are very strong people. I hate this fighting and I hate the fact that innocent people are being hurt and killed on both sides. Unfortunately, we had absolutely no other choice than to start this campaign which, hopefully, will end Hamas' reign of terror over us AND the Palestinians.

If you'd like more in-depth information about this campaign - you're welcome to check out the new IDF video channel on YouTube:

YouTube - idfnadesk's Channel

I hope you'll find it informative.

Thanks a lot and have a good day.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:48 AM   #69
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This war, it's really making me start to think if these issues will ever resolve. It's been going on for such a long time now, and everybody is putting the blame on everyone else but themselves... All we can do is hope and pray that they will put an end to it soon. I was watching the news last night - the reporter was 800 m from the battlefield, it gives you chills, and makes me realise how lucky I am to have grown up in an area where there's no war (yet). To all of you who live in/nearby the area of Gaza or who have family living there, my thoughts go out to you... AchtungBono
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Old 01-04-2009, 07:43 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
A UN-enforced ceasefire, backed by international sanctions for violations from either side, calling for an end to all violent attacks (including targeted assassinations by Israel and missile fire from Gaza); the reopening of Gaza's border with Israel and resumption of normal trade, subject to inspections; a prisoner exchange; and rapid dismantling of the illegal Israeli settlements wouldn't make a bad preamble for a return to negotiations on an independent Palestinian state. And an initial good-faith gesture from Israel in the direction of eventual, inevitable compromises on right of return (a limited annual refugee return quota, and/or establishment of an international fund to help with the costs of resettling refugees) would certainly help to facilitate that process.
Agreed.
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:39 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
Dear Friends,

I'm sorry I've been rather remiss in my postings and replies to your messages. It hasn't been easy times for us here. I live in the city of Ashdod which has sustained a few missile attacks over the past week (some landing close to my house). I live with my older sister and elderly mother and it's really not easy to live in such a constant state of alertness 24/7.

To make things worse, we don't have a shelter where we live so we are all sleeping in our living room downstairs - which saves time when we only have 45 seconds to take cover when the siren sounds. During the day we keep our windows closed (because it's cold) but when the siren sounds my sister and I scramble to open all the windows just to make sure the glass doesn't shatter if a missile should fall nearby.

Let me assure you that we are ok and we are very strong people. I hate this fighting and I hate the fact that innocent people are being hurt and killed on both sides. Unfortunately, we had absolutely no other choice than to start this campaign which, hopefully, will end Hamas' reign of terror over us AND the Palestinians.

If you'd like more in-depth information about this campaign - you're welcome to check out the new IDF video channel on YouTube:

YouTube - idfnadesk's Channel

I hope you'll find it informative.

Thanks a lot and have a good day.
Dear Achtung Bono,

Thank you so much for posting. I will continue to pray for the safety of your family. The rest of us don't know what it is like. We don't live in the Middle East. We are not hearing the rockets firing over our heads. Please, dear friend, be safe. And let us know how you are doing.

Take care,

A stor
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Old 01-04-2009, 11:53 AM   #72
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The year 2008 saw a dramatic increase in the extent of HAMAS rocket fire and mortar attacks on Israel, with a total of 3,278 rockets and mortar shells landing in Israeli territory (1,750 rockets and 1,528 mortar shells). These numbers are double those of 2007 and 2006, years which marked a five-fold increase over prior years.

In 2008, the cities of Ashkelon and Netivot came under attack by Grad artillery rockets with a range of about 20 kilometers. Later, during Operation Cast Lead, Ashdod, Beersheba, and other cities were attacked by a previously un-identified rocket with a range of 40 kilometers from the Gaza Strip. This rocket created a new reality in which nearly one million Israeli residents [about 15 percent of the entire population] were at risk.



Hamas launched an upsurge in rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza once it declared an end to a truce with Israel on 19 December 2008. By 18 December 2008 Palestinian militants had fired at least 40 missiles into Israel since Tuesday 16 December 2008.

On Wednesday 17 December 2008 no less than 24 rockets landed in the Western Negev desert area.

On Thursday 18 December 2008 a further seven rockets landed in Israel.

On December 24, five days after the lull arrangement ended, the cities of Ashqelon , Netivot and Sderot, the towns and villages near the Gaza Strip, the crossings and IDF bases were subjected to a massive rocket and mortar shell attack. At least 60 rockets and mortar shells were fired, most of them by Hamas. Palestinian militants fired over 40 rockets and 20 mortar shells at southern Israeli border towns in the largest daily attack since the end of a six-month ceasefire. Hamas responded by firing more rockets and mortars into southern Israel.

Israel launched an air assault on Gaza on Saturday 27 December 2008, following a series of rocket attacks on its territory and the collapse of a shaky truce that had been in effect for the past six months.




Global Security report - HAMAS Rockets
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Old 01-04-2009, 11:57 AM   #73
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It's more newsworthy when they aren't killing each other, tbh.
ha, no kidding.

what a bunch of stupid fucks on both sides.
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Old 01-04-2009, 12:16 PM   #74
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ha, no kidding.

what a bunch of stupid fucks on both sides.
No kidding.

This is a massive failure of leadership on both sides.
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Old 01-04-2009, 01:36 PM   #75
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A UN-enforced ceasefire, backed by international sanctions for violations from either side....


And since that doesn't appear likely to happen any time soon, where do we place the leadership failure for that?

This article is going to ruffle some feathers and is more radical than my personal view, but makes some interesting points to think about.

What Became of Western Morality?

by Paul Craig Roberts
January 3, 2009

On the last day of the old year, two Israelis, Jeff Halper who heads the Israeli peace movement ICAHD and Neve Gordon who is chairman of the department of politics and government at Ben-Gurion University, asked, “Where’s the Academic Outrage Over the Bombing of a University in Gaza?” [ http://www.counterpunch.org/gordon12312008.html]

“Not one of the nearly 450 presidents of American colleges and universities who prominently denounced an effort by British academics to boycott Israeli universities in September 2007 have raised their voice in opposition to Israel’s bombardment of the Islamic University of Gaza earlier this week,” report Halper and Gordon. They note that Columbia University president Lee C. Bollinger, who has in the past ignorantly insulted Islamic representatives, “has been silent.”

It is the goyim moralists who are silent, not the Jews. It is the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, not the goyim media, that provides reports of Israel’s abuse of Palestinians. Gideon Levy’s “The Neighborhood Bully Strikes Again” was published in Haaretz (29 December), not in the goyim press. Levy’s words--“Once again, Israel’s violent responses, even if there is justification for them, exceed all proportion and cross every red line of humaneness, morality, international law and wisdom”--are not words that can appear in American print or TV media. Such words, printed in Israeli newspapers, never reach the goyim.

The extent of Americans’ ignorance is breathtaking. Israel has the Palestinians jammed into tightly controlled ghettos known as Gaza and the West Bank. With Egypt’s help, Israel controls the inflows of food, medicines, water, and energy into Gaza. Palestinians in Gaza are not permitted to enter Israel or Egypt. Last week a humanitarian ship bringing food and medicine was rammed by Israeli gunboats and turned away.

In the West Bank Palestinians are walled off from their fields, jobs, medical care, education, water, and from one another by endless checkpoints, roads for “Jews only,” walls, barbed wire, and machine gun towers. Palestinians are being evicted from their towns house by house, block by block.

Israel’s slow theft of Palestine is illegal under international law but protected by US “diplomacy.”

The Palestinians are no more of a threat to Israel than Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto were a threat to the Nazi state. Yet, everywhere in America--Congress, the executive branch, the print and TV media, the universities, evangelical Christian institutions--there is the belief that Israel is on the verge of annihilation by Palestinian terrorists. This ignorance, so carefully cultivated by the Israel Lobby, turns genocidal aggression into self-defense.

It fools Americans, but it doesn’t fool Israelis. The Israelis have always known that “self-defense” is a cloak for a Zionist policy of territorial expansion. The policy is controversial within Israel. Many Israelis object, just as many Americans object to President Bush’s illegal wars and violations of US civil liberties. Many Israelis give voice to their moral conscience, but they are overwhelmed by vested interests.

Karl Marx declared morality to be merely a mask for vested interests. The writings of Marx and Engels are scornful of good will and moral ideals as effective forces in history. The Israeli state epitomizes Marx’s doctrine that power alone is the effective force.

Many American conservatives share the Israeli state’s belief in the efficacy of power. Conservatives who turned against Bush’s wars did so because the US was not brutal enough. They turned away from Bush’s long inconclusive wars in the way that fans desert a losing team.

Americans used to say that “the pen is mightier than the sword,” but this hasn’t been the case for US and Israeli aggression. The success the two regimes have had in instilling fear into their populations is part of the explanation for the impotence of morality. Another part of the explanation is that vested interests are a powerful constraint on morality.

Consider the case of Lee Bollinger. Columbia University is dependent on Jewish money, faculty and students. If Bollinger were to take a stand against Israel’s mistreatment of the Palestinians, he would be denounced as an anti-semite. Presidents of competitor universities would not come to his defense. They would pile on in hopes of recruiting Columbia’s top faculty and students and redirecting the flow of financial resources from Columbia to themselves.

An American newspaper or TV network that took a stand against Israel’s abuse of Palestinians would be confronted with an advertising boycott organized by AIPAC. American politicians who criticize Israel go down to defeat by Israel Lobby money.

Hegel gave too much emphasis to ideas, Marx too much to material interests. Both forces operate in the world. There are times in history when revolutionary ideas shatter material interests. Other times the two coexist in a balance of power. In other times material interests prevail over morality.

We are living in the latter time. Financial interests, the military-security complex, and the Israel Lobby are the powers that rule America. They are buttressed by neoconservatives and Christian Zionists and by the patriotic hubris that America is the main force for good operating in the world. The evils America commits are dismissed as necessary to the service of good. The destruction of Iraq, for example, is justified as “bringing freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people.”

A number of commentators, including myself, predict a decline in America’s economic power. As this occurs, Israel will have to abandon its policy of violence. With the accumulated hatred that its policies have fomented, Israel will be vulnerable.

The world will need to remember that although Israel is a Jewish state, it is a state whose policies many Jews find objectionable, just as a majority of American Jews oppose President Bush’s wars of aggression in the Middle East and his unconstitutional policies at home. We must not confuse Israel’s Zionist government with world Jewry, just as we must not confuse the American people with the war criminals in the Bush Regime.

Consider, who do you trust with your civil liberties, the US Department of Justice or the ACLU’s phalanx of Jewish attorneys?

We must avoid the mistake that was made by blaming the German people for Hitler. It was the aristocratic German military that tried to remove Hitler. In contrast, Democratic Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi blocked the attempt to impeach George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Pelosi is a discredit to California, but shall we blame all of America for Pelosi’s defense of war criminals? How can we do so when US Rep. Dennis Kucinich courageously read out the articles of impeachment on the House floor?

Are all Americans guilty because Kucinich did not prevail?
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