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Old 12-31-2008, 05:32 PM   #46
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Unfortunately for everyone involved, it will always be Israeli overkill. Because most of Hamas' untargeted rocket launches and outposts are located in population centers.
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:34 PM   #47
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Unfortunately for everyone involved, it will always be Israeli overkill. Because most of Hamas' untargeted rocket launches and outposts are located in population centers.

where would you recommend they put them?
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:39 PM   #48
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In the middle of the desert.

Seriously, I have no recommendation. Just not surprised when Israel retaliates for months and months of shelling and hundreds of innocent people die.
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:50 PM   #49
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In the middle of the desert.

Seriously, I have no recommendation. Just not surprised when Israel retaliates for months and months of shelling and hundreds of innocent people die.
Gaza, may be the most densly populated place on the planet. There are no open spaces there.

Some believe Israel pulled out of Gaza to get Hamas trapped in a tin can so they could snuff them out. You realize Hamas and the Gazans have been held in a choke hold by Israel, many are not surprised by these crude rockets flying out of Gaza.
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:56 PM   #50
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I'm not shocked. But how does Israel deal with what they feel is a serious security issue?
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:44 PM   #51
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it strikes me that the things Israel must do to keep itself secure wind up making it less secure.

i probably have a bit less sympathy for the "plight" of the Palestinians than most others who locate themselves on the leftward end of the political spectrum, because i do think the media response to anything that happens is disproportionate to the actual suffering involved. the Palestinians function like abortion does in the United States. they're a rallying point, a flashpoint of outrage for certain sections of the Arab world. but nothing ever really gets done, and more importantly, those who could do something make damn well sure that nothing gets done lest it remove one of whatever government's most powerful tools of political persuasion.

and the more i look at the situation, the more convinced i am that what causes the frenzy is not so much the conditions under which the Palestinians live, but the sheer fact that there are Jews there. i've been to many "peace" rallies in Europe, and there's always the undercurrent of anti-Semitism. always.
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Old 01-01-2009, 03:56 PM   #52
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In a crowded waiting room in the afterlife, if you believe in such a thing, sits a recently deceased father of four who was also a loving husband and a loving grandfather. When he is approached by an angel, he is ushered off to a very warm and wonderful place and he speaks to the angel about his life on earth. As they discuss the family he left behind, the angel asks the man if he had any regrets in his relationships with his family. The man thinks for a second about his loving wife, his three daughters and their families, and then his oldest child the hardworking son who never married. He finally admits that he wished he was closer to his son, who often times seemed distant. The angel tells the man that his son, the workaholic who never married and always strived for his fathers approval, was a homosexual.

At first the man is shocked, how could it be? His son never told him, why? The angel reminded the father of how he raised his only son, his first child, how he pushed him so hard to be just like himself and never to compromise his beliefs because that would be a compromise of weakness. And besides, the son was afraid to tell the father because he knew deep down his father would never accept his lifestyle. This made the father very sad, he wished he could have known and loved his son completely and fully on earth. The father wondered would he ever be able to tell his son "its okay, i understand" and tell him he loved him no matter what. The angel assured the father that it would be okay, he would be able to tell his son what he wanted to. But it would be a very long time because his son was only 40 years old and he would live a long and productive life and the second half of his life would be much more fullfilling and he would have more freedom than the first part.

Back in the waiting room, two soldiers who are fresh arrivals were ushered in to what was becoming an increasingly crowded room. The soldiers are wearing different uniforms and they have just died fighting the same battle, from opposite sides. There is only one chair left in the waiting room, the one formerly occupied by the father who had been escorted out earlier. The younger soldier offers the chair to the older one, out of respect to his elder. The older man sits down and graciously thanks the younger man for the offer of the seat. As they wait they exchange pictures of their families that they carry in their wallets, and they each compliment the others children and lament on how they are going to miss them now that they have both passed.

Soon an angel arrives and asks both of the soldiers to accompany her to the warm and wonderful place together. As they begin to discuss their lives on earth, the angel asks each of the men what they regret most about having to lose their lives so early due to endless conflict that has been going on for as long as they could remember. Still holding the photo of his young wife and child, the younger soldier replies that he regrets he will not be around to see his child grow up and that he regrets that his young wife will have to raise the baby by herself, a conflict within the conflict that often gets overlooked.

The older soldier, with tears in his eyes, looks at the younger man and says that he shares in his regrets that the younger man would not be able to see his child grow. The older man admits that he himself was lucky in that respect, because his son was grown and had followed in his own footsteps and was still on the ground fighting the conflict. But if he could, he would tell his son to put down his guns and take his family and go far and away from the fighting. Of the war, the older man figured that it made a lot more sense "at the time" and he was just following orders as any good soldier would. The younger man agreed with him.

The two men stood up and hugged each other in a long embrace, and they faced the angel and said all they wished for now was peace and they wanted the ability to tell their families to stop the bloodshed and to enjoy the gift of life. Standing up and fighting for your rights is a worthy and nobel cause, even if that means standing up to end senseless bloodshed that has gone on for seemingly ever and accomplished nothing. It's a lot clearer picture from our current view, stated both men.

The angel looked thoughtful for a moment and asked both men to sit down. She advised them that they would get their wish, they would be able to talk to their families again and tell them everything that they had wanted to. The younger man could see his wife and child again and the older man could ask his son to lay down his arms. Both men seemed relieved at the "second chance" to speak to their families, until the angel explained fully why they would be given this opportunity. The angel spoke "this conflict will go on until the end of times, it has taken many men like yourselves and it will continue to take many more and make widows of many more women and orphans of many children. Your regret will cast no shadow on the leaders of nations and parties on earth who continue to destroy each other over land disputes, natural resources, and power. Your families will understand what you have to say to them, they will forgive you for what you have done. In fact your families have just arrived into our waiting room so I will bring them in to see you now..."

Pardon my ramblings, its new years day and im foggy. I won't participate in your discussion but i wanted to share that with you.
Happy New Year everyone, and hopefully peace on earth.
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Old 01-01-2009, 05:24 PM   #53
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and the more i look at the situation, the more convinced i am that what causes the frenzy is not so much the conditions under which the Palestinians live, but the sheer fact that there are Jews there.
It's disappointing to see you swallow up and regurgitate neo-conservative, imperialist, propaganda, ascribing opposition to Israel as 'anti-semitism' is really and ultimately no more and no less than an excuse to do nothing and pretend there isn't a problem.
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Old 01-01-2009, 06:07 PM   #54
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It's disappointing to see you swallow up and regurgitate neo-conservative, imperialist, propaganda, ascribing opposition to Israel as 'anti-semitism' is really and ultimately no more and no less than an excuse to do nothing and pretend there isn't a problem.
Everyone recognizes there's a problem. But as Irvine put it, "nothing ever really gets done." God knows a lot of people have tried.

How would you go about fixing it financeguy?
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Old 01-01-2009, 07:36 PM   #55
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Neocon imperialist dogs in Iran
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The Iranian press watchdog shut down leading reformist newspaper Kargozaran on Wednesday over publication of a piece criticising Palestinian militants, the official IRNA news agency reported.

"Kargozaran has been banned over a media offence and the case has been referred to the court," Mohammad Parvizi, who is in charge of domestic media at the culture ministry, told IRNA.
He said the ban was ordered over "a piece yesterday which justifies the Zionist regime's crimes against humanity in Gaza and portrays the Palestinian resistance as terrorists who cause the deaths of children and civilians by taking up position in kindergartens and hospitals."

Kargozaran's director Morteza Sajadian confirmed the closure and said the piece in question was a statement by a radical pro-reform student group, the Office to Consolidate Unity.
"The statement was not supposed to be carried, it was mistakenly printed," he told AFP, hoping the ban would be only temporary.

Kargozaran's licence holder is the Executives of Construction, a political party close to former president Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani.

The paper, which started publication three years ago, has been a frequent target of attack from rival hardline media over its content, which has been perceived as hostile to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Under Ahmadinejad, Iranian newspapers, websites and news agencies of all political persuasions have been hit by a string of closures.

Iran is a staunch supporter of the Islamist Hamas movement which controls Gaza and does not recognise its archfoe Israel, which has been pounding the territory with a deadly air blitz for the past five days.
AFP: Iran shuts down leading reformist newspaper
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Old 01-01-2009, 07:43 PM   #56
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It's disappointing to see you swallow up and regurgitate neo-conservative, imperialist, propaganda, ascribing opposition to Israel as 'anti-semitism' is really and ultimately no more and no less than an excuse to do nothing and pretend there isn't a problem.



far, far worse things happen in the world to other peoples. this is not to excuse anything. this is making distinctions between situations.

what makes this situation so unique is that there are Jews involved.
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Old 01-01-2009, 09:55 PM   #57
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far, far worse things happen in the world to other peoples. this is not to excuse anything. this is making distinctions between situations.

what makes this situation so unique is that there are Jews involved.

The only reason why 'anti-semitism' is brought into it to obscure debate on the central issue - which is the theft of the Palestinians' land, and their eviction from that land. The issue is fundamentally about human rights - indeed, the most fundamental of all human rights, which is the right to property.
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Old 01-01-2009, 10:50 PM   #58
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The only reason why 'anti-semitism' is brought into it to obscure debate on the central issue - which is the theft of the Palestinians' land, and their eviction from that land. The issue is fundamentally about human rights - indeed, the most fundamental of all human rights, which is the right to property.


so what do you have to offer? besides labels and pronouncements?
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Old 01-02-2009, 01:27 AM   #59
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The only reason why 'anti-semitism' is brought into it to obscure debate on the central issue - which is the theft of the Palestinians' land, and their eviction from that land. The issue is fundamentally about human rights - indeed, the most fundamental of all human rights, which is the right to property.
Are Jews (and their descendants) who were evicted from Arab states when Israel was created entitled to restitution?

Is it only the illegal post-1967 settlements (an example of US dollars being funneled to defend religious nuts) which should be given back to the Palestinian people or is all of Israel illegitimate?

Is a two state solution justifiable, or should all of Palestine be wrested from Zionist control?

Is the plight of the Palestinians who are murdered by Israeli bullets more important than those killed by Arab states like Jordan?

Does violent resistance to occupation justify violence against civilians?

Should pro-Palestinian activists discriminate between secular nationalists and religious fundamentalists? People marching under a Hamas flag as a sign of national liberation in western countries fully ignore the oppressive social policies which that group has instituted in Gaza.

You aren't blind to the abuses of Israel, and definitely see the bias (justified or unjustified) from western nations in the conflict, but where do you draw the line.

What sort of Palestinian state do you want to see?

What sort of Israeli state do you want to see?

Beyond advocating resistance to occupation and state terrorism as a morally justified action what sorts of changes have to happen on both sides for any long term resolution?
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:23 PM   #60
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The only reason why 'anti-semitism' is brought into it to obscure debate on the central issue - which is the theft of the Palestinians' land, and their eviction from that land. The issue is fundamentally about human rights - indeed, the most fundamental of all human rights, which is the right to property.


does Hamas not violate the human rights of the Palestinians when it does things that they know will provoke an disproportionate response from the Israelis? this is less to justify the Israeli response and point to the fact that it's great PR for Hamas when they can talk about 10 dead Palestinians for every 1 Israeli, so their actual strategy is to increase the suffering of the very people they are meant to defend. Hamas, and the rest of the Arab world, use the Palestinians to further their stated goal of the actual destruction of Israel, of wanting to push it into the ocean. this isn't about the Palestinians, really. it's about the existence of Israel. hence, that's why it is about the Jews, and always has been about the Jews. you are absolutely right, in practical terms, that the Palestinians do suffer at the hands of the Israelis. and often disproportionately. but the reasons behind that suffering are far grander and more sinister than your rhetoric acknowledges. Israel is continually provoked to beat up on a much weaker kid, and every time it does so, it only hurts it's own security because it inspires a generation of new recruits and it loses sympathy in the eyes of westerners who (perhaps with the best of intentions) want to reduce the situation to how Hamas wants you to see the situation (see! they're the *real* terrorists!).

and, as an aside, Hamas is democratically elected (and, thus, we know that "democracy" doesn't really solve anything in and of itself).
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