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Old 02-02-2009, 02:35 AM   #556
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No one in his right mind would think of prosecuting Israel for defending itself against its enemies - just like no one prosecuted the allies in world war 2 who fought against the Germans and Japanese. Don't forget that the allies bombed the cities of Dresden and Berlin (among others), resulting in hundreds of civillian casualties and also the United States dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, resulting in thousands of casualties - and no one prosecuted them for it.
These actions brought about the surrender of Germany and Japan and effectively ended the war.

The same thing applies here. Israel is fighting an evil enemy that hides itself among the civillian population, hides in hospitals among the patients, digs tunnels under homes and fills them with ammunition, rigs civillian homes and schools with explosives, fires mortar shells from UN organization buildings and basically holds the civillian population hostage in their search for false domination and victory - much like the Nazis did in Europe before they were soundly and utterly brought to their knees. And the same thing will happen to Hamas, god willing, and the sooner the better.

There isn't a court in the universe who would prosecute Israel for its actions and I'm surprised that you don't suggest that the courts prosecute Hamas for using their civillians as human shields and using UN buildings, ambulances and hospitals as launching pads for rocket attacks.

I know that most people won't agree with me but the fact remains that Hamas has caused nothing but devastation and misery to the Palestinian people since they seized power, and the Palestinians have no hope for peace and quiet as long as Hamas remain in power.

My hope is that when all this is over, the Palestinians will have the courage to have REAL elections and choose leaders who will speed up their independence and help them lead peaceful lives rather than spend millions of dollars buying weapons to shoot against us, and hopefully the young people will live to a peaceful old age rather than blow themselves up at age 19 or 20 in a false sense of martyrdom.

That is my dream and it WILL come true some day.
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:33 AM   #557
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AchtungBono, what is your opinion on the disposition of the settlements in the peace process?
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:41 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
Don't forget that the allies bombed the cities of Dresden and Berlin (among others), resulting in hundreds of civillian casualties and also the United States dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, resulting in thousands of casualties - and no one prosecuted them for it.
Do you think that's because the whole world viewed those as righteous acts to be applauded? Who would have prosecuted them? The Nuremberg Charter and the Tokyo Tribunal were explicit that only the Axis powers--who, remember, had been forced to surrender unconditionally--could be tried; there was no International Criminal Court; the Hague Conventions hadn't even been updated to cover aerial warfare yet; and the infant United Nations had grown out of wartime Allied conferences between what are now the five permanent Security Council members (the former Axis powers weren't admitted until 1955, 1973 in Germany's case). There were a few internal investigations by various Allied powers into selected incidents involving their own soldiers (for instance, the US did court-martial some of its officers for massacring Italian POWs in cold blood during the invasion of Sicily), but there was never the slightest chance that international prosecution for carnage on the scale of Dresden or Hiroshima-Nagasaki would take place. (Those bombings killed, respectively, tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands, not "hundreds" and "thousands.") The instruments of justice weren't there and neither was any possibility whatsoever of impartial oversight.
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There isn't a court in the universe who would prosecute Israel for its actions and I'm surprised that you don't suggest that the courts prosecute Hamas for using their civillians as human shields and using UN buildings, ambulances and hospitals as launching pads for rocket attacks.
Indeed, any fair investigation would call BOTH parties to account. ("Would" being the operative word, since for reasons I alluded to earlier no large-scale international investigation is at all likely to happen here.)

But how you manage to compare the imminent threat posed by Hamas in 2009 with that posed by Germany and Japan in 1945, following years of global total warfare, is beyond me.
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:52 PM   #559
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True, Hamas is to blame as much as Israel. But were Israel really fully prepared to take on Hamas? It seems like they went off half-cocked, and thousands of innocent people (not Hamas members) died as a result.
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Old 02-03-2009, 01:22 AM   #560
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The settlement building, aside from being illegal, is also incredibly incendiary and a clear act of provocation. It absolutely does not get adequate coverage in the US at all.
I forgot to mention it but a week ago, CBS' Bob Simon did a story on the settlements and the impediment they present to the peace process. It's a little over 13 minutes long, and can now be viewed at their website:

60 Minutes segment on West Bank settlements - Jan. 25, 2009



Incidentally, this segment is also the focus of J Street's latest letter-writing campaign. Predictably, after it aired, CAMERA et al. leaped into action with their own letter-writing campaigns lambasting CBS for having the "bias" to cover the settlements without simultaneously talking about Palestinian terrorists, so J Street has started their own letter-writing campaign thanking CBS for bringing this seldom-covered aspect of the story to Americans' attention. If anyone's interested, you can sign and send a copy of their form letter yourself via J Street's site. Responding to media presentations is another area where citizen participation can make a difference...something CAMERA and related organizations have understood for decades.
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Old 02-03-2009, 01:35 AM   #561
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
but how you manage to compare the imminent threat posed by hamas in 2009 with that posed by germany and japan in 1945, following years of global total warfare, is beyond me.
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Old 02-03-2009, 01:51 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
I forgot to mention it but a week ago, CBS' Bob Simon did a story on the settlements and the impediment they present to the peace process. It's a little over 13 minutes long, and can now be viewed at their website:

60 Minutes segment on West Bank settlements - Jan. 25, 2009



Incidentally, this segment is also the focus of J Street's latest letter-writing campaign. Predictably, after it aired, CAMERA et al. leaped into action with their own letter-writing campaigns lambasting CBS for having the "bias" to cover the settlements without simultaneously talking about Palestinian terrorists, so J Street has started their own letter-writing campaign thanking CBS for bringing this seldom-covered aspect of the story to Americans' attention. If anyone's interested, you can sign and send a copy of their form letter yourself via J Street's site. Responding to media presentations is another area where citizen participation can make a difference...something CAMERA and related organizations have understood for decades.
Thanks for posting those links, Yolland.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:10 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
No one in his right mind would think of prosecuting Israel for defending itself against its enemies - just like no one prosecuted the allies in world war 2 who fought against the Germans and Japanese. Don't forget that the allies bombed the cities of Dresden and Berlin (among others), resulting in hundreds of civillian casualties and also the United States dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, resulting in thousands of casualties - and no one prosecuted them for it.
These actions brought about the surrender of Germany and Japan and effectively ended the war.

The same thing applies here. Israel is fighting an evil enemy that hides itself among the civillian population, hides in hospitals among the patients, digs tunnels under homes and fills them with ammunition, rigs civillian homes and schools with explosives, fires mortar shells from UN organization buildings and basically holds the civillian population hostage in their search for false domination and victory - much like the Nazis did in Europe before they were soundly and utterly brought to their knees. And the same thing will happen to Hamas, god willing, and the sooner the better.

There isn't a court in the universe who would prosecute Israel for its actions and I'm surprised that you don't suggest that the courts prosecute Hamas for using their civillians as human shields and using UN buildings, ambulances and hospitals as launching pads for rocket attacks.

I know that most people won't agree with me but the fact remains that Hamas has caused nothing but devastation and misery to the Palestinian people since they seized power, and the Palestinians have no hope for peace and quiet as long as Hamas remain in power.

My hope is that when all this is over, the Palestinians will have the courage to have REAL elections and choose leaders who will speed up their independence and help them lead peaceful lives rather than spend millions of dollars buying weapons to shoot against us, and hopefully the young people will live to a peaceful old age rather than blow themselves up at age 19 or 20 in a false sense of martyrdom.

That is my dream and it WILL come true some day.
Well you are totaly wrong here!
In wars in Croatia and Bosnia at beginning of 90's Serbia was the aggressor, and they are even named as such in UN resolutions so there is no mistake about who was the "evil" one and who was guilty for those wars.
But in Hague everyone is persecuted - Bosnians, Croats and Serbs under the principle that war crime is a war crime.

The war in Croatia and Bosnia ended in '95 after big Croatian offensive in which Croatia liberated majority of it's land and saved couple of Bosnian towns from going through tragedy like Srebrenica (look it up if you don't know what I'm talking about). And today we have for instance 3 Croatian generals on trial in Hague because of to much shelling of one major town in occupied teritory. This is about couple dosens of shels and less than 10 or 20 people injured. So they are prosecuting army officers form winning "good" side.

So now - what would you do about 1000 civilians killed in Israeli shelling and bombing and why not take Israeli leaders and generals to war crime tribunal?

Or are you saying that Israel has right to kill civilians and that US and Allies had right to kill so many civilians in Germany and Japan? I don't think that that is right and just. Crime is a crime. The thing is that US and its allies are to strong so thay can create their own rules and they can rewrite history to their liking.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:08 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
I forgot to mention it but a week ago, CBS' Bob Simon did a story on the settlements and the impediment they present to the peace process. It's a little over 13 minutes long, and can now be viewed at their website:

60 Minutes segment on West Bank settlements - Jan. 25, 2009



Incidentally, this segment is also the focus of J Street's latest letter-writing campaign. Predictably, after it aired, CAMERA et al. leaped into action with their own letter-writing campaigns lambasting CBS for having the "bias" to cover the settlements without simultaneously talking about Palestinian terrorists, so J Street has started their own letter-writing campaign thanking CBS for bringing this seldom-covered aspect of the story to Americans' attention. If anyone's interested, you can sign and send a copy of their form letter yourself via J Street's site. Responding to media presentations is another area where citizen participation can make a difference...something CAMERA and related organizations have understood for decades.
I watched this when it was originally aired. I thought it was an excellent segment and presented another point of view to the conflict. Something, America rarely sees. We were only allowed to watch, thanks to a bias media, "Palestinian terrorist and suicide bombers." Thank you for posting this.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:21 AM   #565
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Responding to media presentations is another area where citizen participation can make a difference...
Excellent point, thank you. I watched the original airing of the 60 Min piece as well...in a little bit of shock and awe to be honest (and a whole lot of respect), wondering what when on behind the scenes before and after such a risky story.

The media tells us what we want to hear.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:43 PM   #566
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I found this interesting, don't know how accurate it is:

Quote:
The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000

ONE BILLION TWO HUNDRED MILLION or 20% of the world's population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:

1988 - Najib Mahfooz

Peace:

1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1994 - Yaser Arafat:
1990 - Elias James Corey
1999 - Ahmed Zewai

Economics: (zero)

Physics: (zero)

Medicine:
1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
1998 - Ferid Mourad


TOTAL: 7 SEVEN


_____________________________________________________________

The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000
Only FOURTEEN MILLION or about 0.02% of the world's population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:

1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pasternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

Peace:

1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

Physics:

1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 - Felix Bloch
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadter
1961 - Melvin Calvin
196 2 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1972 - William Howard Stein
1973 - Brian David Joseph son
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - P eter L Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1989 - Sidney Altman
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
1995 - Martin Perl
2000 - Alan J. Heeger

Economics:

1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Simon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Milton Friedman
1978 - Herbert A. Simon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Markowitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 - Robert Fogel

Medicine:

1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herb ert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman
1953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Arthur Kornberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jacob
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1995 - Edward B. Lewis
TOTAL: 129 ONE HUNDRED TWENTY NINE!

The Jews are NOT promoting brain washing children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims!

The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics, or blow themselves up in German restaurants. There is NOT one single Jew that has destroyed a church. There is NOT a single Jew that protests by killing people.

The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.

Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.

Muslims must ask 'what can they do for humankind' before they demand that humankind respects them!!

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel 's part, the following two sentences really say it all:

'If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.'
-Benjamin Netanyahu
<>
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:16 AM   #567
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I don't believe it's a fair comparison. The Muslim population during the 20th century was concentrated in the developing world rather than the developed. Most (correct me if I'm wrong) of the Jewish winners lived in Europe/United states etc.
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Old 02-06-2009, 02:20 AM   #568
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By Sarah el-Deeb, Associated Press, Feb 5

CAIRO – Hamas negotiators left Egypt without a long-term cease-fire with Israel on Thursday--but not before some members of the militant group's delegation were stopped at the Gaza border carrying millions in cash. The delegation walked away from the cease-fire talks because of disagreements over the blockage on Gaza and border security. Talks will continue at a later date.

An Egyptian security official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media, said the group initially refused to be searched by Egyptian authorities at the Rafah border crossing. When the group relented, authorities found $7 million and 2 million euros ($2.5 million) in cash in their suitcases. Another security official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said $9 million and 2 million euros were found. The discrepancy could not be immediately explained. The money was later deposited in an account in Egypt by a Hamas member who stayed behind while the rest of the delegation was allowed to return to Gaza, the second security official said. He later returned to Gaza, the second official said. It was not clear what would happen to the money. There was no immediate comment from Hamas. The incident is a sensitive one for Egypt, particularly now, when Israel is demanding a halt to Hamas smuggling into Gaza as part of truce negotiations.

Israel and Hamas do not talk directly, so Egypt has been mediating the talks on solidifying the shaky cease-fire that went into effect on Jan. 18, ending Israel's three-week offensive on Gaza. Egypt had set Thursday as an expected date for reaching a long-term truce deal. But a Hamas official, Mohammed Nasr, said Thursday that differences over opening the border crossings into Gaza were preventing the deal. Nasr was part of the negotiating team that left Cairo, but he is from the Syria arm of Hamas and not the group returning to Gaza.

Hamas demands that any truce include the full opening of borders into Gaza, which Israel and Egypt have largely kept sealed since Hamas seized control of the territory from Palestinian rivals Fatah in 2007. Hamas also wants a role in administering the border crossings in recognition of its power in Gaza. Israel says it will not ease the blockade of the densely populated and impoverished coastal strip without international guarantees Hamas will be prevented from smuggling more weapons into Gaza. It does not want Hamas to have a role in controlling Gaza's border crossings.

Nasr said smuggling would only stop if the borders were open. "The main point revolves around us getting a clear and honest commitment to lift the blockade completely. We still didn't get that," Nasr told The Associated Press before leaving to Damascus. "We have no agreement until we have an agreement on everything." He said his group is expecting answers from the Israelis on the border issue. His comments came as Israel's point man on the negotiations arrived in Egypt for talks.
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Old 02-06-2009, 02:43 PM   #569
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UN News Centre, 6 February

The main United Nations relief agency responsible for feeding 900,000 Palestinian refugees in Gaza today suspended all imports of desperately needed aid after Hamas confiscated hundreds of tons of food, the second such seizure in three days. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon demanded that Hamas immediately return the food to the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), which said its suspension would remain in force until such a return and “the Agency is given credible assurances from the Hamas government in Gaza that there will be no repeat of these thefts.”

...The seizures followed repeated UNRWA warnings that not nearly enough food and other vital supplies were getting through because of Israel’s closure of most crossing points into Gaza. Just hours before the latest seizure, UNRWA Director of Operations in Gaza John Ging had warned that the Agency would suspend operations if there was a repeat. Although the amount stolen in the first seizure was small, “it’s massive in its significance because they’ve crossed a red line,” Mr. Ging said.

...On Tuesday, 3,500 blankets and over 400 food parcels were taken at gunpoint from a distribution store in Beach Camp in Gaza. Hamas said it would give out the aid itself and Mr. Ging yesterday told Hamas to “stop the nonsense that they’ve been coming out with trying to justify what they did and accept that it was an egregious error.”

...The Office of the UN Humanitarian Coordinator for the occupied Palestinian territory (UNSCO) reported today that, because of the difficulties in obtaining food, 88% of Gaza’s 1.4 million inhabitants are now registered to receive food aid from UNRWA and the UN World Food Programme (WFP).
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Old 02-07-2009, 11:43 AM   #570
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And the 88% receive food aid, because they are not allowed to have jobs.
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