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Old 01-11-2009, 07:35 AM   #466
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Yes, but the problem is, one doesn't have to delve too far to find equivalent dodgy and racist propaganda on the other side....




Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
Not that the subtext didn't exist, but the research didn't go past the 70's.

When I was in high school (late 90's) the maps in our class didn’t show Gaza strip as a part of Israel. The west bank was marked according to the peace process back then, with acknowledgment to what was being transferred to the Palestinian authority.

In the Palestinian authority text books, there is not a single acre of land on the map that referees to Israel. It's all Palestine.
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:08 AM   #467
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No it's based on actual rockets fired.

19-30 June: 9
July: 20
August: 17
September: 2
October: 2
November: 190


June: 87
July: 1
August: 8
September: 1
October: 1
November: 126

From Daniel Bennett - Gaza media coverage - official sources and numbers

As there was a discrepancy, I listed both sets of numbers.

While the rockets never stopped, Hamas appears to have upheld their part of the ceasefire until Israel attacked on the 4th of November, despite the enforcement of the Israeli blockade.
I don't think firing 1 rocket is upholding a cease-fire. I still feel that media outrage is based on who is the underdog.
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Old 01-11-2009, 12:13 PM   #468
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I don't think firing 1 rocket is upholding a cease-fire. I still feel that media outrage is based on who is the underdog.
Who fired that rocket? If it was Islamic Jihad or al Aqsa, who are not Hamas, then is not Hamas upholding the ceasefire?

Just like the authorities in Canada cannot prevent all criminals from conducting criminal acts in their spare time, neither can Hamas prevent 5 guys from another group from lobbing over a rocket each and every time.
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Old 01-11-2009, 12:42 PM   #469
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Non-Taliban Afghans want a slice of the pie too....

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"The acts of Israel against the innocent Muslims of Gaza are barbaric and inhumane and widely helped by the Americans," Assam said, adding that nearly 10,000 people across Afghanistan had so far volunteered to fight in Gaza.

...

While reaching Gaza from Afghanistan is all-but impossible, many of the volunteers said they would take revenge on U.S. troops inside Afghanistan instead.

"Infidels are killing Muslims everyday and the United States is saying Israel's offensive is just," said Mohammad Akram, a shopkeeper. "If we can't reach Gaza, we should seek revenge on Israel's allies in our own country like the Taliban do."
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Old 01-11-2009, 01:07 PM   #470
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Who fired that rocket? If it was Islamic Jihad or al Aqsa, who are not Hamas, then is not Hamas upholding the ceasefire?

Just like the authorities in Canada cannot prevent all criminals from conducting criminal acts in their spare time, neither can Hamas prevent 5 guys from another group from lobbing over a rocket each and every time.
I would be okay with this assessment if there was some good punishment against Islamic Jihad, like kicking them out of the country. It also doesn't help that Hamas believes in Jihad so I don't think they are being honest. Blame it on a splinter faction to say it wasn't your fault all the while harboring them. They are not stupid. They could get rid of these people but tolerate and promote plenty of anti-Jewish propaganda all the time. I'll give the Palestinians one thing. They are good at propaganda. I mean why have military equipment in residential areas unless you want more collateral damage? Israel will be considered weak if they take no action and terrorists if they destroy Hamas's military capabilities. Also Syria and Iran are too intangled in this mess to let Hamas off the hook.

"Crime" if it goes cross border with rockets is more like war. If Palestinians can say "not much we can do" then Pakistan can say the same thing about the Taliban and no one really takes responsiblity for those activities. If Palestinians can't punish these splinter factions then Israel will do so. If Pakistan harbors the Taliban and says "not much we can do" then the U.S. will take action instead of letting the problem fester.

I don't think Canadians would tolerate rocket attacks coming from next door neighbors and just get used to them because they don't do enough damage. My assessment of human nature is that if there is danger nearby humans like to fight back to the point that the odds are nearly zero that harm would be coming their way at all. If Westerners get angry about the smallest things like traffic problems then they would be livid and incensed with the government if they tolerated rocket attacks.
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Old 01-11-2009, 01:12 PM   #471
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I would be okay with this assessment if there was some good punishment against Islamic Jihad, like kicking them out of the country.
What country would this be, exactly?

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I don't think Canadians would tolerate rocket attacks coming from next door neighbors and just get used to them because they don't do enough damage.
Thankfully Canadians aren't occupying their neighbours and stealing their land, so that we don't have this problem.
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Old 01-11-2009, 02:30 PM   #472
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What country would this be, exactly?
Hamas in Gaza could do more to stop Jihad but unfortunately they do more to promote it. Of course Syria and Iran have similar problems and don't have to take responsiblity for insurgents entering Iraq because "it's beyond their control." People can't make choices I guess. Punishing splinter factions must be "beyond their control." Pakistan can't get rid of the Taliban because "it's beyond their control." Rockets are put on residential buildings because "it's beyond their control."

YouTube - "It's Beyond My Control!"

Israel should use this argument. "We are destroying your military capabilities and it's beyond our control."

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Thankfully Canadians aren't occupying their neighbours and stealing their land, so that we don't have this problem.
I guess Canada is occupying Afghanistan too right? Destroying Hama's capabilities will require invading their land. Bombing from afar is not effective enough on its own. Giving up Gaza and forceably removing Jewish people who intended on staying didn't increase peace at all and was rewarded with Hamas being elected. Hamas ignored international calls to recognize Israel as a country. Talk about starting on the wrong foot.

Removing blockades and military at the Gaza border would be opening Israel to more terrorist attacks. It will be a prolonged period at best before Israel will open borders in Gaza and to be trusting that casual traffic will not include terrorists.

I would be hopefull if Hamas recognized Israel and put together a better charter that wasn't so antagonistic. Quelling fears of terrorism would help by not promoting anti-Jewish sentiments in the media and severe punishment for unauthorized rocket attacks would gallvanize Israelis to want peace. Beyond these measures taking place I'm cynical that we will see peace.

The root cause of all these problems is Islamic fundamentalism. Any attempts to argue that attacking Hamas military capabilities and blocking the border to prevent suicide bombers from getting in as morally the same as concentration camps is holocaust victimization envy which I think is tasteless propaganda. I'm not being fooled by Eno's argument. The reason there isn't another Holocaust is because Israel and the U.S. prevent it.
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Old 01-11-2009, 02:38 PM   #473
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Hamas in Gaza could do more to stop Jihad but unfortunately they do more to promote it.
No, you said that Hamas needs to kick Islamic Jihad out of the "country." What, the country of Gaza? And I'm really not sure where it is you want them to deport these people out to? Israel?


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The root cause of all these problems is Islamic fundamentalism.
No, it isn't.

Islamic fundamentalism in Gaza and the West Bank and the emergence of fundamentalist Islamic political parties is a relatively recent phenomenon. Are you at all familiar with this conflict historically?
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Old 01-11-2009, 02:45 PM   #474
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I would be okay with this assessment if there was some good punishment against Islamic Jihad, like kicking them out of the country. It also doesn't help that Hamas believes in Jihad so I don't think they are being honest. Blame it on a splinter faction to say it wasn't your fault all the while harboring them. They are not stupid. They could get rid of these people but tolerate and promote plenty of anti-Jewish propaganda all the time. I'll give the Palestinians one thing. They are good at propaganda. I mean why have military equipment in residential areas unless you want more collateral damage? Israel will be considered weak if they take no action and terrorists if they destroy Hamas's military capabilities. Also Syria and Iran are too intangled in this mess to let Hamas off the hook.

"Crime" if it goes cross border with rockets is more like war. If Palestinians can say "not much we can do" then Pakistan can say the same thing about the Taliban and no one really takes responsiblity for those activities. If Palestinians can't punish these splinter factions then Israel will do so. If Pakistan harbors the Taliban and says "not much we can do" then the U.S. will take action instead of letting the problem fester.

I don't think Canadians would tolerate rocket attacks coming from next door neighbors and just get used to them because they don't do enough damage. My assessment of human nature is that if there is danger nearby humans like to fight back to the point that the odds are nearly zero that harm would be coming their way at all. If Westerners get angry about the smallest things like traffic problems then they would be livid and incensed with the government if they tolerated rocket attacks.
The fact remains until Israel attacked on the 4th of November. It was reasonably calm by the standards of the region. So the whole rocket excuse is bull, it's all to do with the Israeli elections. They attempted to provoke a reaction with the blockade and increased overflights, and when that didn't work they started bombing. If Israel wanted to eliminate the rocket attacks the action they took hardly worked did it?
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Old 01-11-2009, 02:58 PM   #475
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Thankfully Canadians aren't occupying their neighbours and stealing their land, so that we don't have this problem.
:firstnationtears:
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Old 01-11-2009, 03:07 PM   #476
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:firstnationtears:
I should have said currently.

And I do think we have been appalling to our First Nations peoples historically, although there are some good things happening under our legal system to guarantee Treaty rights and so on, which is a step in the right direction.
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Old 01-11-2009, 03:19 PM   #477
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It was reasonably calm by the standards of the region.
For you – reasonably calm. For tens & hundreds of thousands – life under a constant threat, kids with arrested development, teenagers who don't control body wastes and still wet their bed at night, dysfunctional adults with ongoing anxiety attacks. It's the fear of getting outside your home for constant eight years.

Just a missile here and there for you isn't just a missile here and there for them – it's not reasonably calm by any means.
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Old 01-11-2009, 03:31 PM   #478
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Just a missile here and there for you isn't just a missile here and there for them – it's not reasonably calm by any means.
I appreciate first hand experience, since I have it.

Very few people here at FYM actually ever lived under the threat of death on a daily basis with shells falling down from the sky indiscriminately. I have.

And I have to say that yes, it did make a difference to me when there was even a weak ceasefire and "only" 10 shells fell on my city in a day as opposed to 700. That made the difference between my father being able to feel safe "enough" to go out and get fresh food that day and going without. It also made a difference between being able to open a window and not.

I would never advocate that any civilian population should happily accept some level of constant danger, but I understand popshopper's point insofar that having 2 or 3 rogue rockets land a month was a significant and laudable improvement and a very good starting point. You never start from the ideal, you work your way to it. To completely dismiss the positive effects of the ceasefire that was in effect does not serve any productive purpose.
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Old 01-11-2009, 03:34 PM   #479
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For you – reasonably calm. For tens & hundreds of thousands – life under a constant threat, kids with arrested development, teenagers who don't control body wastes and still wet their bed at night, dysfunctional adults with ongoing anxiety attacks. It's the fear of getting outside your home for constant eight years.

Just a missile here and there for you isn't just a missile here and there for them – it's not reasonably calm by any means.
At least they're alive. I bet you all the money in the world they wouldn't swap places with someone in Gaza. As it was there were relatively few rocket attacks, and given how ineffective they are, probably even less on target. I think there is still something like 10 a day after the Israeli action.

So, on average 6 per month over a 3 month period before Israel attacked to something like 10 per day after they attacked. Yet people still blame the rockets for the Israeli aggression. It's political and from the recent opinion polls it seems to have done the trick.
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Old 01-11-2009, 04:01 PM   #480
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No, you said that Hamas needs to kick Islamic Jihad out of the "country." What, the country of Gaza? And I'm really not sure where it is you want them to deport these people out to? Israel?
God this is pedantic and condescending. Palestine is a country which includes those who live under Palestinian Authority. This has nothing to do with my argument that splinter factions that you say are responsible (eg. Islamic Jihad) should be punished. "It's beyond my control" is not going to stop Israel from doing something about it.

If terrorists can't be deported from the country of origin or if they are homegrown I'm sure jails can be utilized.

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No, it isn't.

Islamic fundamentalism in Gaza and the West Bank and the emergence of fundamentalist Islamic political parties is a relatively recent phenomenon. Are you at all familiar with this conflict historically?
I'm not arguing about whether it's recent or not. I've already conceded that Israel has the right to exist. Islamic fundamentalists don't think so. They will continue to put pressure until Israel gives up. The argument historically is lost and the U.N. already backs the existence of Israel. Hamas was asked to make the same claim when they were elected and they refused to. This is the reason why there is still war.

The only way you can ignore Islamic Fundamentalism as being the main problem is if you believe that the partition was wrong and Israel shouldn't exist.

Look in the Hamas charter I posted. They don't believe in the existence of Israel. In fact they feel the Jews will be given up by the "rocks and trees". They don't respect peace treaties and say as much. How can they be innocent? Here I'll post it again.

Hamas Charter

They [the Jews] inspired the establishment of the United Nations and the Security Council… in order to rule the world by their intermediary.

They think the U.N. is controlled by the Jews. Why would they listen to the U.N. in regards to peace then? To them the U.N. is Zionist and therefore the world is and the Palestinians are heros fighting the Jewish world. Islamic Fundamentalism is the cause of the problems in the middle east period. When are people going to put the responsiblity of their actions into their own hands?
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