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Old 01-10-2009, 05:04 PM   #391
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it seems like the most pro-Hamas posters in here are the ones who are particularly sensitive to any discussion of anti-Semitism.
Who here is pro-Hamas??

This part of your post is seriously disturbed.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:08 PM   #392
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Yet the claim of a Jewish nation is religious by it's very nature, not secular. It is a conversion religion. Being Jewish does not mean you are member of one race, there is no 'Jewish' people anymore than there is a Catholic or Protestant people therefore any land claim based purely on Judaism is unsustainable. So the idea of prior land rights in general is not applicable.


so what do you suggest we do with the Israelis? send them back to Europe?

i also think you very much misunderstand the ethnic component to Judaism and the fact that it's not analogous to Catholicism or Protestantism. certainly, anyone can convert to Judaism, but to deny that there isn't, for lack of a better word, a "Jewish people" ignores the history of Jews in Europe throughout the Middle Ages.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:10 PM   #393
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The 'well-off homes in the West' argument is grotesquely ahistorical, as is the assertion that the 'notion' Jews were and are perceived by themselves and others as an ethnoracial group is merely some Zionist political fiction. And neither whitewash is remotely necessary for grasping why the Palestinians correctly perceive that decisions made by the British (who were acting out of political self-interest, not philosemitism) over their heads and against their will, followed by 60 years of independent Israel having the military upper hand and acting like it, has left them, even in the realm of possibility, with far less land than they might have controlled otherwise.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:13 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Muldfeld View Post
Long-term occupation does terrible things to a culture -- far worse than the Holocaust did to the Jewish people. The Jewish migrants to the region already had homes in the West. They didn't need to steal that of others.


it's statements like this that belie the anti-Semitism latent in much of the discussion that surrounds this issue.

the subtext is, "we're so sick of hearing about the Holocaust, poor you, stop with your museums and your Spielberg Oscar winning movies, don't you Jews get enough attention?"

and so, some are quick to point out the "Israelis are the new Nazis" and they talk about genocide and ethnic cleansing and, oh the irony.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:16 PM   #395
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Who here is pro-Hamas??


i can PM you three posters who, in my opinion, are pro-Hamas (i.e., they seek the dissolution of Israel) if accusations are names are so important to your understanding of this discussion.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:17 PM   #396
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The 'well-off homes in the West' argument is grotesquely ahistorical, as is the assertion that the 'notion' Jews were and are perceived by themselves and others as an ethnoracial group is merely some Zionist political fiction. And neither whitewash is remotely necessary for grasping why the Palestinians correctly perceive that decisions made by the British (who were acting out of political self-interest, not philosemitism) over their heads and against their will, followed by 60 years of independent Israel having the military upper hand and acting like it, has left them, even in the realm of possibility, with far less land than they might have controlled otherwise.


oh my gosh -- this must mean that Yolland is siding with Purpleoscar, Irvine, Melon, Stongbow, Ann Coulter, and Karl Rove!!!
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:18 PM   #397
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i can PM you three posters who, in my opinion, are pro-Hamas (i.e., they seek the dissolution of Israel) if accusations are names are so important to your understanding of this discussion.
I think it's a pretty bold accusation to make. If you're talking about me, I certainly take great offense.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:20 PM   #398
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I think it's a pretty bold accusation to make. If you're talking about me, I certainly take great offense.


i think you're smart enough to know that i'm not talking about you.

i also think you know that listing names isn't terribly productive in FYM.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:24 PM   #399
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um, but this has always been Hamas's policy. why do they parade bodies of dead kids through the street? why do they only need to outlast an onslaught, and offer up hundreds of dead bodies, in order to talk about "victory"?

it's the Hamas apologia in here that's more disturbing than my apparent racism for thinking that not all Israelis are Nazis, apparently.
Ah, so no evidence again.

Interesting that whenever Israel's war crimes are discussed, you want to turn the discussion into something else.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:27 PM   #400
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Ah, so no evidence again.

Interesting that whenever Israel's war crimes are discussed, you want to turn the discussion into something else.


what evidence do you want? this is baffling to me -- Hamas absolutely exploits human tragedy to it's fullest and elevates those who have been killed to the status of being a martyr.

there's ample discussion of Israel's war crimes in here and on the news. but i suppose i'm a racist who's just ignoring the issue if i don't condemn all Israelis as butchers and thieves and genocidal maniacs?
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:37 PM   #401
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Let's be honest here, we have only one country that has real influence with Israel, it's the United States. Which sends billions of dollars in aid, and billions more in military support. And that particular country only supports one side (referring to the government, not the people) and is as absent in its condemnation of Israel as some other countries are in their condemnation of Hamas. In fact, the ironic thing is that a number of Arab states, for their own reasons, actually have criticized Hamas. The US government is yet to criticize Israel at all in this conflict.

So we don't quite have one-sided anti-Israeli WORLD sentiment, do we? Lucky for Israel, they have the support of the one nation that actually matters.
This nails it precisely. Excellent post.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:49 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
it's statements like this that belie the anti-Semitism latent in much of the discussion that surrounds this issue.

the subtext is, "we're so sick of hearing about the Holocaust, poor you, stop with your museums and your Spielberg Oscar winning movies, don't you Jews get enough attention?"

and so, some are quick to point out the "Israelis are the new Nazis" and they talk about genocide and ethnic cleansing and, oh the irony.
While I strongly disagree with and repudiate Muldfeld's implication that occupation of Palestinian land is equivalent to the Holocaust, the point about Jewish migrants from the West is actually a legitimate point.

Seriously, how come US-borne Jews who have never lived in the Mid East and whose ancestors haven't done so for centuries get to have more land rights in the Middle East than the local people whose ancestors have lived there for generations?

I can understand it if it is Jews who are coming from countries where they are being subject to discrimination and oppression but I don't think anyone can seriously argue that the US and Canada are environments where Jews are suffering active discrimination.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:53 PM   #403
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Gaza conflict seen as boost to Mideast hardliners: analysts - Yahoo! News
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Old 01-10-2009, 07:12 PM   #404
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I think it's the other way around, the racism is usually in media representations of Palestinians as opposed to Israelis (the former are bearded and dress funny, therefore suspect, the latter dress more or less like us, ergo are probably the good guys. Some even have American accents - not surprisingly as some are actually Americans).

But, as apparently we're now in the business of suggesting FYM'rs who are angered at Israel's actions are antisemites, though I doubt if you are a racist, if we really want to talk of racism, some of your posts re Hamas are rather curious. To me saying that Hamas are deliberately getting their own kids killed is a shocking thing to say and potentially a racist slur, and strikes me as worryingly similar to the 'blood libel' slurs that used to be said by anti-semites against Jews. ( Blood libel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Assuming your complaint that the conflict gets disproportionate attention refers to the media in general rather than this forum, in my opinion, saying that Israel doesn't get a fair hearing in the media is just delusional.
The TV station which Hamas runs uses children's programs to indoctrinate the cult of martyrdom, it tells kids that killing Jews is a path to heaven, and the staged marches which have children "playing" military operations are somewhat disturbing



Unlike the blood libel there is actually evidence for the assertion that Hamas has no interests in the future of Palestinian children beyond war.
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Old 01-10-2009, 07:24 PM   #405
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^ Well, they are dressed funny.

No beards though.
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