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Old 01-10-2009, 02:31 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
That's not good enough for me. Your argument seems to be based on how much damage is done. If I was living in Israel it definately wouldn't be good enough. If they seriously punished those guys then that would be something but as you say they didn't.

FOXNews.com - Rocket Attacks Threaten Mideast Truce, Israel Shutters Gaza Crossings - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News



Born in Israel: Palestinian Twins Under Rocket Fire from Gaza - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
No it's based on actual rockets fired.

19-30 June: 9
July: 20
August: 17
September: 2
October: 2
November: 190


June: 87
July: 1
August: 8
September: 1
October: 1
November: 126

From Daniel Bennett - Gaza media coverage - official sources and numbers

As there was a discrepancy, I listed both sets of numbers.

While the rockets never stopped, Hamas appears to have upheld their part of the ceasefire until Israel attacked on the 4th of November, despite the enforcement of the Israeli blockade.
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Old 01-10-2009, 02:47 PM   #377
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Sorry you can't just come back after 500 hundred years and say now that things have gotten dicey elsewhere, you'll need to piss off and die so we can live here.
There has been a continual Jewish presence in the region before the Arabs came along.

The advocation of the destruction of Israel is the same as saying "you've been here for centuries before us but you'll have to piss off and die in the sea because we don't like you".

Palestinians have no acceptable claim to the land. If they do, please define and outline it rather than snide comment and expect that to be a proportionate response.

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The founders of Israel wanted a Jewish state, some because they thought it was their divine right, some because of what happened to the Jewish people elsewhere.
The founder of Zionism was Theodore Herzl who was a secular Jewish journalist. The catalyst for Zionism was the false trial of the Jewish French officer Dreyfus accused of state treason.

The founders of the political state of Israel like David Ben-Guriion were secular Jews. They were interested in biblical history, but more for its archeological and national identity value.

The majority of Jews are secular, they are not religious.

Reference to biblical history by secular Zionists is not an indication of religiousity and hence the idea of "divine right" is moot. "Divine right" is concept supported the religious parties who are minorities in Israel.

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As soon there was a critical mass they started a campaign of 'independence', or by it's true name ethnic cleansing.
The aim was expulsion, any military acts considered close to ethnic cleansing were and have been proven to be isolated incidents. What critical mass are you referring to? Jews were still a minority in the land? Did they swamp the Arabs?

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The zionists were very clear on this they couldn't have an Israel with 750,000 Palestinians in it.
The Arabs made it clear they couldn't live with Jews who had lived in the land centuries before they did in Morocco, Iraq, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria...or did you conveniently ignore that historical fact?


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For a small window before the 'independence' both sides where living in relative peace, it wasn't until the Zionists upped the ante things went to shit.
The Zionists created employment for the Arabs through their land reclaimation and farming projects. The only ones upping the ante was the Palestinian and Arab leadership and their calls for extermination of the Jews. Do you also forget the attempted progroms by the Arabs just like in Europe?

Do you conveniently forget that the Mufti Hajji Al Amin Husseini was a supporter and friend of Adolf Hitler? Im SURE he was dissuading Hitler from exterminating the Jews..............not,


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No prior claim to the land excuses them for their actions.
Im not excusing anything? WHo said I was excusing them, I was providing a perspective that shattered your cosy assumptions. I dont agree with everything the Israelis do! Thats just crazy!

But you have excused the Arabs for their actions!

You have exempted them from fair criticism.

You have conveniently turned a blind eye in your pursuit of ignorance and naviete.

You rely on party lines to resolve your opinions.
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Old 01-10-2009, 02:59 PM   #378
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That Israel does not deserve a free pass on criticism, but the sheer lack of a balanced response is downright appalling.
Clearly the sensationalism is harsh on your erudite sensibilities and sure, it's become overly one-sided.

When the status quo response perpetuates the view that this is an unfortunate but unfixable situation, when that is actually untrue, it's time more people wake up to that reality so that those with the political and diplomatic power to fix it do so.

In general, not just this issue, status quo and giving up on real solutions make me MAD AS HELL.

The status quo for as long as I can remember has been spectacularly lopsided the other way and continues under threat of anti-semitism accusations.

Tipping the scales (balance) to take an unflinching look at the role Israel has played and what realistic concessions it will need to make (pragmatic) and who is in the realistic position to negotiate those concessions and why (US) is where I and others have put focus.

I make no apologies for tipping the scale hard for momentum if it has even a tiny chance of getting beneficial results.
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Old 01-10-2009, 02:59 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Shaizari View Post
There has been a continual Jewish presence in the region before the Arabs came along.

The advocation of the destruction of Israel is the same as saying "you've been here for centuries before us but you'll have to piss off and die in the sea because we don't like you".

Palestinians have no acceptable claim to the land. If they do, please define and outline it rather than snide comment and expect that to be a proportionate response.



The founder of Zionism was Theodore Herzl who was a secular Jewish journalist. The catalyst for Zionism was the false trial of the Jewish French officer Dreyfus accused of state treason.

The founders of the political state of Israel like David Ben-Guriion were secular Jews. They were interested in biblical history, but more for its archeological and national identity value.

The majority of Jews are secular, they are not religious.

Reference to biblical history by secular Zionists is not an indication of religiousity and hence the idea of "divine right" is moot. "Divine right" is concept supported the religious parties who are minorities in Israel.



The aim was expulsion, any military acts considered close to ethnic cleansing were and have been proven to be isolated incidents. What critical mass are you referring to? Jews were still a minority in the land? Did they swamp the Arabs?



The Arabs made it clear they couldn't live with Jews who had lived in the land centuries before they did in Morocco, Iraq, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria...or did you conveniently ignore that historical fact?




The Zionists created employment for the Arabs through their land reclaimation and farming projects. The only ones upping the ante was the Palestinian and Arab leadership and their calls for extermination of the Jews. Do you also forget the attempted progroms by the Arabs just like in Europe?

Do you conveniently forget that the Mufti Hajji Al Amin Husseini was a supporter and friend of Adolf Hitler? Im SURE he was dissuading Hitler from exterminating the Jews..............not,




Im not excusing anything? WHo said I was excusing them, I was providing a perspective that shattered your cosy assumptions. I dont agree with everything the Israelis do! Thats just crazy!

But you have excused the Arabs for their actions!

You have exempted them from fair criticism.

You have conveniently turned a blind eye in your pursuit of ignorance and naviete.

You rely on party lines to resolve your opinions.
Yet the claim of a Jewish nation is religious by it's very nature, not secular. It is a conversion religion. Being Jewish does not mean you are member of one race, there is no 'Jewish' people anymore than there is a Catholic or Protestant people therefore any land claim based purely on Judaism is unsustainable. So the idea of prior land rights in general is not applicable.

And I don't give the Arabs a pass for anything, in fact I blame them more than I blame the Israeli's, who were only making the best of a bad situation. Arguably the Arab nations could end the whole thing tomorrow by turning off the Oil supply to Israel which would force a peace within months. The actions of the Arab nations throughout this whole thing has been awful and unhelpful, it suits some leaders in the Arab nations to have the boogeyman of Israel to distract them from their lack of freedom.

However the way Israel carried out their actions was inexcusable, and remains so to this day.
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:01 PM   #380
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My mother said this was an excellent explanation of the situation by the Jewish "60 Minutes" news correspondent -- one of the few good news people on that show -- Bob Simon. After all the insight he's gotten, Charlie just can't being so deplorably pro-Israeli; he's stuck in the Cold War mentality of accepting America's excuses for Israel.

Between this guy and Jon Stewart and Noam Chomsky and Ira Steven Behr and others, why does it seem, in America, like liberal Jews "get it" more than liberal Christians in mainstream news?

Charlie Rose - A conversation with Bob Simon
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:02 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
Financeguy and Muldfeld.....

You are both pathetic little worms who wouldn't know a good thing if it bit you on the behind. I have no idea how you two managed to finish school seeing as both your brains aren't big enough to fill a thimble.....

Your sick, twisted way of thinking is a credit to every terrorist organization in the world and you deserve to be in the Al Qaida hall of fame.



P.S.: there's a point to this post.....
And you belong with every right wing Israeli scum who has defended the occupation. I guess you'd group Brian Eno and many good people with us, eh? Enjoy your stolen land. Don't get me wrong. This is something white settlers did to native Americans, but at least North American society has accepted that it was the wrong thing. Israel was founded in the post-colonial world, and nations were supposed to know better. The Palestinians still have their passion and strong sense of community, which could work well with Israel if they just accepted them as equals. I'd hate to see the Palestinians see the same dispirited fate as the present-day native population, living on reserves without hope and largely without interest in education.

Long-term occupation does terrible things to a culture -- far worse than the Holocaust did to the Jewish people. The Jewish migrants to the region already had homes in the West. They didn't need to steal that of others.
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:19 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Muldfeld View Post

Long-term occupation does terrible things to a culture -- far worse than the Holocaust did to the Jewish people. The Jewish migrants to the region already had homes in the West. They didn't need to steal that of others.
Oh for fuck's sake. Financeguy, what's worse? Irvine agreeing with Purpleoscar or Muldfeld being on your side of the argument?
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:30 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by AliEnvy View Post
Clearly the sensationalism is harsh on your erudite sensibilities and sure, it's become overly one-sided.

When the status quo response perpetuates the view that this is an unfortunate but unfixable situation, when that is actually untrue, it's time more people wake up to that reality so that those with the political and diplomatic power to fix it do so.

In general, not just this issue, status quo and giving up on real solutions make me MAD AS HELL.

The status quo for as long as I can remember has been spectacularly lopsided the other way and continues under threat of anti-semitism accusations.

Tipping the scales (balance) to take an unflinching look at the role Israel has played and what realistic concessions it will need to make (pragmatic) and who is in the realistic position to negotiate those concessions and why (US) is where I and others have put focus.

I make no apologies for tipping the scale hard for momentum if it has even a tiny chance of getting beneficial results.
You do realize, though, that the one-sided anti-Israeli sentiment is the status quo, right? I appreciate the passion many people do feel in this thread, and I think it is a palpable indicator of how tired most of us are in hearing about this seemingly never-ending cycle of violence. And I, too, make no apologies for hoping for momentum that results in a peaceful, two-state solution, which is why I have been arguing the way I am.

As far as I see it, this is a conflict between Israel versus Hamas, Hezbollah, and their anti-Semitic, anti-American (again, back to my idea that this is mainly a proxy war) Middle Eastern backers. Please note my careful use of words in that this is not a battle between Israel versus Palestinians and Lebanon. Hezbollah, for instance, operates separately from Lebanon and receives funding and arms from outside nations like Iran with the explicit purpose of keeping this conflict going ad infinitum. Hamas and Fatah, likewise, do not represent the views of all Palestinians--and it is they who are caught in the middle and suffer through this. Merely making passionate, emotional pleas that solely target Israel and not Hamas, Fatah, and Hezbollah (along with Iran, Syria, and whomever else is funding them) is exactly the kind of environment that will further this conflict. Hamas and Hezbollah (and their backers) are not interested in a two-state solution; they're interested in a one-state solution, with Israel wiped off the map. Likewise, if you're truly concerned that Israel only wants a one-state solution itself, with the Palestinians wiped off the map, this is added impetus to forcefully and with balance condemn all the actors in this theatre of war. Only then can we, perhaps, find an end to this.

In the meantime, as far as I'm concerned, the same kind of one-sided, over-emotional pleas that I see in this thread and elsewhere are a maintenance of the status quo. It's about time we take the "emotion" out of this, and ask ourselves how we can solve this problem once and for all for the sake of the Palestinians and the Israeli people.
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:32 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Muldfeld View Post
And you belong with every right wing Israeli scum who has defended the occupation. I guess you'd group Brian Eno and many good people with us, eh? Enjoy your stolen land. Don't get me wrong. This is something white settlers did to native Americans, but at least North American society has accepted that it was the wrong thing. Israel was founded in the post-colonial world, and nations were supposed to know better. The Palestinians still have their passion and strong sense of community, which could work well with Israel if they just accepted them as equals. I'd hate to see the Palestinians see the same dispirited fate as the present-day native population, living on reserves without hope and largely without interest in education.

Long-term occupation does terrible things to a culture -- far worse than the Holocaust did to the Jewish people. The Jewish migrants to the region already had homes in the West. They didn't need to steal that of others.
You're nuttier than squirrel shit.
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:14 PM   #385
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I think this article originally posted by A_Wanderer is worth repeating, if only to emphasize the fact that Hamas uses the humanitarian crisis for its own ends, and has no concern for the Palestinians' suffering.

AFP: Egypt says Hamas not allowing wounded to leave Gaza

Quote:
Egypt on Sunday blamed Hamas for not letting hundreds of Palestinians wounded by Israeli air strikes leave the Gaza Strip for treatment, with dozens of empty ambulances waiting on the border.

More than 270 Palestinians have been killed and 600 wounded since Israel began hammering the Gaza Strip with air strikes on Saturday, but no wounded have yet left via Rafah, the Hamas-ruled territory's only Arab border crossing.

"No one has come in, we don't know why they're closed on the other side," a senior border security official told AFP. Several plane- and truck-loads of aid are also waiting to be allowed into the Gaza Strip, a security official said.

"The wounded are barred from crossing" into Egypt, Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit said in Cairo, blaming "those who control Gaza. We are waiting for the wounded to cross."

In the divided town of Rafah, the road leading to the border crossing was lined with 20 riot police vehicles, an AFP correspondent reported, with 40 ambulances and several pick-ups full of medicine waiting to cross into Gaza.

"We are preparing a list of casualties. There are just so many dead and injured," Dr Mouneer al-Borsh from the Hamas-run health ministry told AFP at the border.
He had arrived at the border with a ministry truck and was waiting to take medical supplies into Gaza.

Asked when the wounded would arrive at the border, Borsh said: "I don't know when. I can't say."

An Egyptian medic said that "sometimes they (Hamas) say they're going to bring people, sometimes they say they're not going to bring people. Now they say they want medical supplies for the wounded."

Gaza has been crippled by an Israeli blockade of all but the most essential supplies, with even basic medicines lacking in the impoverished territory. But no emergency medical aid entered on Sunday.

A security official said that an Egyptian plane with 50 doctors on board as well as medical supplies had arrived in nearby El-Arish. Two Qatari aircraft carrying 50 tonnes of medical supplies were waiting at the same airport.

Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah has also ordered three planeloads of medical aid to the Gaza Strip via Egypt, MENA said, and offered to airlift the wounded.

"The Rafah border crossing was opened by the Egyptians yesterday, but no Hamas people showed up" on the other side, an Israeli military spokesman said.
This is precisely why condemnation must be swift against all atrocities by all actors, because clearly Hamas uses the one-sided anti-Israeli world sentiment to further its own aims.
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:37 PM   #386
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And for people who forget just how strongly Israel takes is obligation to treaties and cease-fires

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In an interview that created a stir in Israel after its belated publication, Defense Minister Moshe Dayan declared:

I know how at least 80 percent of all of the incidents there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's speak about 80 percent. It would go like this: we would send a tractor to plow in the demilitarized area, and we would know ahead of time that the Syrians would start shooting. If they did not start shooting, we would inform the tractor to progress farther, until the Syrians, in the end, would get nervous and would shoot. And then we would use guns, and later, even the air force, and that is how it went..We thought that we could change the lines of the cease-fire accords by military actions that were less than a war. That is, to seize some territory and hold it until the enemy despairs and gives it to us.

It was just such a staged provocation - an Israeli tractor plowing through a disputed field despite Syrian pleas for compromise - that sparked the April 1967 aerial battle.

Michael Oren's Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East Reviewed by Norman Finkelstein
That process has been repeated many times. Set up a ceasefire, provoke the Palestinians or Syria or the Lebanese to a response then claim victimhood.
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:57 PM   #387
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Apart from Jenin, Pilgar has usually backed up his claims with investigative work. Of course he's past the 3 anti-Israeli articles you're allowed before your officially an anti-Semite. What particular claim of Pilgar do you take issue with?

i'm familiar with much of Pilgar's work, and it's about the level of Michael Moore agitprop, only not as funny.

his opinion is as valid as anyone else's, but to view him as a credible, evenhanded commentator on any world affairs is silly.

he's been brought up before in FYM on other subjects, and i find him of dubious credibility pretty much no matter the subject.

it seems like the most pro-Hamas posters in here are the ones who are particularly sensitive to any discussion of anti-Semitism. why? is it beyond comprehension that, yes, maybe, especially when we're dealing with various Arab governments and terrorist organizations, that anti-Semitism might have something to do with the situation at hand?
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:58 PM   #388
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They used tractors to provoke Syria 42 years ago? Wow, whatever my opinion was before, consider it changed!

I'll see my way out of this thread now. I pretty much know where everyone stands, and if the above post represents what is going to be used as evidence to prove to me just how sinister Israel is, then at least one side has run out of ammunition (please excuse the poor word choice).
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:00 PM   #389
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To me saying that Hamas are deliberately getting their own kids killed is a shocking thing to say and potentially a racist slur, and strikes me as worryingly similar to the 'blood libel' slurs that used to be said by anti-semites against Jews. ( Blood libel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )


um, but this has always been Hamas's policy. why do they parade bodies of dead kids through the street? why do they only need to outlast an onslaught, and offer up hundreds of dead bodies, in order to talk about "victory"?

it's the Hamas apologia in here that's more disturbing than my apparent racism for thinking that not all Israelis are Nazis, apparently.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:01 PM   #390
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This is precisely why condemnation must be swift against all atrocities by all actors, because clearly Hamas uses the one-sided anti-Israeli world sentiment to further its own aims.
Let's be honest here, we have only one country that has real influence with Israel, it's the United States. Which sends billions of dollars in aid, and billions more in military support. And that particular country only supports one side (referring to the government, not the people) and is as absent in its condemnation of Israel as some other countries are in their condemnation of Hamas. In fact, the ironic thing is that a number of Arab states, for their own reasons, actually have criticized Hamas. The US government is yet to criticize Israel at all in this conflict.

So we don't quite have one-sided anti-Israeli WORLD sentiment, do we? Lucky for Israel, they have the support of the one nation that actually matters.
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