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Old 01-09-2009, 12:34 PM   #301
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So you ignore the Hamas charter I posted? It's no better than Mein Kampf. Israel is not doing a Jihad. They are showing there is a consequence for firing rockets at them. I'm tired of this conversation because the people who instigated this problem (Hamas) have succeed with their propaganda to make it look like Israel attacked them unprovoked. This is no different than the propaganda techniques of the communists. Israel is put into a position of a "damned if you do and damned if you don't". These double binding techniques are no different than what most bullies do. They attack a victim but pretend to be one when the victim retaliates. If I was living in Israel I would be sick and tired of this game too.

Whether people believe it or not Islamic Fundamentalism is a threat to the world let alone Israel, and as Anitram pointed out they are out birthing Israelis. Islamic Fundamentalists are looking at this situation in a long term context of Israel being so weak and outnumbered that their state ends. It's a war.
Hamas can say all they want, big deal. Israel has the 5th biggest army and the 3rd largest nuclear arsenal in the world, it's existence isn't in threat. As for demographics, don't worry at the rate the IDF is going there won't be many Palestinians left.

I'm going to copy this from Wikipedia (which I normally abhor but I'm kind of pressed for time, and from a quick check the citations and references are correct)

Quote:
On 19 June 2008, an Egyptian-brokered six-month cease-fire agreement "for the Gaza area"[37][81] went into effect between Hamas and Israel.[37] On 24 June 2008, Israel raided the city of Nablus on the West Bank, outside of the cease fire area,[82] killing a commander of Islamic Jihad (an organisation independent of Hamas) and one other Palestinian.[83] Later the same day, three Qassam rockets were fired from Gaza into Sderot, Israel, causing two minor injuries, and Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility, stating the attack was in response to the Israeli raid.[84] Israel closed border crossings into Gaza in response to the rocket attack,[82] and on 26 June, Hamas warned Israel that its closure of the Gaza border was seen as a major cease-fire violation.[citation needed]
Monthly rocket hits in Israel 2008.[85]

Hamas called on other Palestinian factions to abide by the truce, and a rocket attack on Israel by Fatah was condemned by Hamas as "unpatriotic."[86] Hamas claimed it would imprison anyone, from its own ranks or other groups, caught firing rockets, but explicitly stated it would not police the border with Israel.[87] Rocket and mortar attacks continued at a rate of several rockets per month, often with no one taking responsibility. Rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between Jun 18 and Nov 4 in comparison with the four and half months preceding the ceasefire. Over 1,894 rockets were fired into Israel from Feb to Jun 18, 2008 and 37 were fired between Jun 18 and the beginning of November. [85]

Israel allowed some increase in the quantities of goods trucked into Gaza, from 70 truckloads per day to ninety, but traffic was not restored to the 500-600 truckloads delivered daily before the closing and the mix of goods was also restricted.[88] [89] Israel accused Hamas of continuing the smuggling of weapons into the Gaza strip via tunnels to Egypt, pointing out that the rocket attacks had not completely ceased, and complained that Hamas would not continue negotiating the release of Israeli hostage Gilad Schalit, held by Hamas in Gaza since 2006.[47]

On 4 November 2008, Israeli troops raided a border area of the Gaza Strip, where the Israeli military claimed Hamas had built a tunnel which they were planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers.[90] A Hamas fighter was killed, Hamas launched rockets over the border, and Israeli strikes on the rocket launchers killed another five Hamas members.[90] Hamas termed this raid a "massive breach of the truce,"[91] and Hamas rocket attacks increased sharply in November 2008, approaching the pre-truce levels.[92]
2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since the ceasefire, the Rocket attacks have been provoked by Israeli action, including three strikes into Gaza and a blockade. Hamas are murderous scum, but Israeli is no better, and neither want peace. Unfortunately the people of Palestine are paying the price.
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Old 01-09-2009, 12:38 PM   #302
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Oh look a Israeli powerpuff piece about their wonderful friendly troops and those lying arabs, unfortunately for Israel the neutrals on the ground such as the UN, International Red Cross and Amnesty tell a completely different story, and the UN has the bodies to prove it.

In Europe at the moment there is a palpable anger at not just their murderous campaign, but also their cack handed efforts at managing the PR.
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:30 PM   #303
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Oh look a Israeli powerpuff piece about their wonderful friendly troops and those lying arabs, unfortunately for Israel the neutrals on the ground such as the UN, International Red Cross and Amnesty tell a completely different story, and the UN has the bodies to prove it.

In Europe at the moment there is a palpable anger at not just their murderous campaign, but also their cack handed efforts at managing the PR.
Moral equivalency again.

The U.N. adds up the bodies but ignores how civilians are near military targets. You need to learn more about how Jihad works and how deception is a part of their war plan. Even NAZIS looked at themselves as "victims".

Amnesty international is a left-wing group. They don't like war and put Israel and Palestine on a moral equivalency which helps Hamas. I'm happy the U.S. so far has had the balls to support Israel.
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:45 PM   #304
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Moral equivalency again.

The U.N. adds up the bodies but ignores how civilians are near military targets. You need to learn more about how Jihad works and how deception is a part of their war plan. Even NAZIS looked at themselves as "victims".

Amnesty international is a left-wing group. They don't like war and put Israel and Palestine on a moral equivalency which helps Hamas. I'm happy the U.S. so far has had the balls to support Israel.
What about the UN?, you know the ones that actually allowed Israel to be a country, are they left wing and lying as well, or the IRC?

And what exactly is so moral about herding up civilians into a house then shelling it? Or IDF murderers sitting chatting next to a room of starving toddlers huddled around their dead mothers body?

8 Israeli dead, 770 Palestinian dead, you're right there is no moral equivalency. The Palestinian dead aren't an illusion or a trick, the actions of Hamas are no cover for the well documented crimes of the IDF in this current action.

You've made yourself very clear, the only good Palestinian is a dead one, they're all bombers and killers anyway.

Nice use of the Nazi analogy, there's only one force acting like the SS at present.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:17 PM   #305
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Human rights is soooo left wing...

This is why I gave up on these types of discussions.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:19 PM   #306
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it still doesn't change the fact that the conditions required for Israel to provide all those basic needs to Gaza just aren't there.
What is this based on? Not international law, since it's patently false in that context.

If you want to throw away the principles of international law that's one thing, but as they stand, what you are saying simply has no bearing. Either we operate under that accepted umbrella, or we do not. And if you want to selectively ignore aspects like this one by imposing "conditions" which do not exist under international law, then by the same token Hamas should be free to to ignore aspects of international law that they don't agree with either.

I understand what your point is, but it's just not consistent with anything legally speaking, so I'm not sure how much it's worth pragmatically even if you think that what you are seeking is a pragmatic solution.

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their tentative, but imperfect calm with the West Bank)
Well once you've robbed the area of land that doesn't belong to you and keep expanding on a daily basis with total disregard for law, sure you'd be willing to make peace.

And as for why it is incumbent upon Israel (and why I disagree with you that it's all up to Arab nations, Palestinians and the terrorist groups) to make peace, it can be summed up in one word: demographics. Israel already has the bantustans and in 50 years or less they will have a true apartheid. It is in their best interest to get a peaceful two-state solution NOW, or they can wait another century until the Palestinians outnumber them 3:1 or 4:1 and then have the real fun begin.
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Old 01-09-2009, 03:42 PM   #307
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Published on Friday, January 9, 2009 by The Nation
Israel: Boycott, Divest, Sanction

by Naomi Klein

It's time. Long past time. The best strategy to end the increasingly bloody occupation is for Israel to become the target of the kind of global movement that put an end to apartheid in South Africa.
In July 2005 a huge coalition of Palestinian groups laid out plans to do just that. They called on "people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era." The campaign Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions--BDS for short--was born.

Every day that Israel pounds Gaza brings more converts to the BDS cause, and talk of cease-fires is doing little to slow the momentum. Support is even emerging among Israeli Jews. In the midst of the assault roughly 500 Israelis, dozens of them well-known artists and scholars, sent a letter to foreign ambassadors stationed in Israel. It calls for "the adoption of immediate restrictive measures and sanctions" and draws a clear parallel with the antiapartheid struggle. "The boycott on South Africa was effective, but Israel is handled with kid gloves.... This international backing must stop."

Yet many still can't go there. The reasons are complex, emotional and understandable. And they simply aren't good enough. Economic sanctions are the most effective tools in the nonviolent arsenal. Surrendering them verges on active complicity. Here are the top four objections to the BDS strategy, followed by counterarguments.

1. Punitive measures will alienate rather than persuade Israelis. The world has tried what used to be called "constructive engagement." It has failed utterly. Since 2006 Israel has been steadily escalating its criminality: expanding settlements, launching an outrageous war against Lebanon and imposing collective punishment on Gaza through the brutal blockade. Despite this escalation, Israel has not faced punitive measures--quite the opposite. The weapons and $3 billion in annual aid that the US sends to Israel is only the beginning. Throughout this key period, Israel has enjoyed a dramatic improvement in its diplomatic, cultural and trade relations with a variety of other allies. For instance, in 2007 Israel became the first non-Latin American country to sign a free-trade deal with Mercosur. In the first nine months of 2008, Israeli exports to Canada went up 45 percent. A new trade deal with the European Union is set to double Israel's exports of processed food. And on December 8, European ministers "upgraded" the EU-Israel Association Agreement, a reward long sought by Jerusalem.

It is in this context that Israeli leaders started their latest war: confident they would face no meaningful costs. It is remarkable that over seven days of wartime trading, the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange's flagship index actually went up 10.7 percent. When carrots don't work, sticks are needed.

2. Israel is not South Africa. Of course it isn't. The relevance of the South African model is that it proves that BDS tactics can be effective when weaker measures (protests, petitions, back-room lobbying) have failed. And there are indeed deeply distressing echoes: the color-coded IDs and travel permits, the bulldozed homes and forced displacement, the settler-only roads. Ronnie Kasrils, a prominent South African politician, said that the architecture of segregation that he saw in the West Bank and Gaza in 2007 was "infinitely worse than apartheid."

3. Why single out Israel when the United States, Britain and other Western countries do the same things in Iraq and Afghanistan? Boycott is not a dogma; it is a tactic. The reason the BDS strategy should be tried against Israel is practical: in a country so small and trade-dependent, it could actually work.

4. Boycotts sever communication; we need more dialogue, not less. This one I'll answer with a personal story. For eight years, my books have been published in Israel by a commercial house called Babel. But when I published The Shock Doctrine, I wanted to respect the boycott. On the advice of BDS activists, I contacted a small publisher called Andalus. Andalus is an activist press, deeply involved in the anti-occupation movement and the only Israeli publisher devoted exclusively to translating Arabic writing into Hebrew. We drafted a contract that guarantees that all proceeds go to Andalus's work, and none to me. In other words, I am boycotting the Israeli economy but not Israelis.

Coming up with this plan required dozens of phone calls, e-mails and instant messages, stretching from Tel Aviv to Ramallah to Paris to Toronto to Gaza City. My point is this: as soon as you start implementing a boycott strategy, dialogue increases dramatically. And why wouldn't it? Building a movement requires endless communicating, as many in the antiapartheid struggle well recall. The argument that supporting boycotts will cut us off from one another is particularly specious given the array of cheap information technologies at our fingertips. We are drowning in ways to rant at one another across national boundaries. No boycott can stop us.

Just about now, many a proud Zionist is gearing up for major point-scoring: don't I know that many of those very high-tech toys come from Israeli research parks, world leaders in infotech? True enough, but not all of them. Several days into Israel's Gaza assault, Richard Ramsey, the managing director of a British telecom company, sent an e-mail to the Israeli tech firm MobileMax. "As a result of the Israeli government action in the last few days we will no longer be in a position to consider doing business with yourself or any other Israeli company."

When contacted by The Nation, Ramsey said his decision wasn't political. "We can't afford to lose any of our clients, so it was purely commercially defensive."

It was this kind of cold business calculation that led many companies to pull out of South Africa two decades ago. And it's precisely the kind of calculation that is our most realistic hope of bringing justice, so long denied, to Palestine.
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Old 01-09-2009, 04:32 PM   #308
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What about the UN?, you know the ones that actually allowed Israel to be a country, are they left wing and lying as well, or the IRC?

And what exactly is so moral about herding up civilians into a house then shelling it? Or IDF murderers sitting chatting next to a room of starving toddlers huddled around their dead mothers body?

8 Israeli dead, 770 Palestinian dead, you're right there is no moral equivalency. The Palestinian dead aren't an illusion or a trick, the actions of Hamas are no cover for the well documented crimes of the IDF in this current action.

You've made yourself very clear, the only good Palestinian is a dead one, they're all bombers and killers anyway.

Nice use of the Nazi analogy, there's only one force acting like the SS at present.
This is stupid. It's a war. I get the impression that Israel needs to even up the deaths to make liberals feel good. In war the best thing to do is win. We defeated the NAZIS that way and looking at the Hamas Charter we know who really resembles the NAZIS after all. It's no surprise that the fascists today will call their enemy fascists so the simple minded will try to avoid being called a NAZIS out of political correctness. Maybe if Hamas didn't support Jihad the world would be a better place? Only moderate Muslims in the believe Jihad is an inner struggle. Fundamentalists believe Jihad is an external struggle. Hence the war on terror that we are dealing with.

Anyone who quotes from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is already going into Mein Kampf territory.

Look at the Palestinian national anthem:

My country, my land, land of my ancestors
My country, my country, my country
My people, people of perpetuity
With my determination, my fire and the volcano of my revenge
With the longing in my blood for my land and my home
I have climbed the mountains and fought the wars
I have conquered the impossible, and crossed the frontiers
My country, my country, my country
My people, people of perpetuity
With the resolve of the winds and the fire of the guns
And the determination of my nation in the land of struggle
Palestine is my home, Palestine is my fire, Palestine is my revenge and the land of endurance
My country, my country, my country
My people, people of perpetuity
By the oath under the shade of the flag
By my land and nation, and the fire of pain
I will live as a fida'i*, I will remain a fida'i, I will end as a fida'i - until my country returns
My country, people of perpetuity.

*fida'i = one who risks his life voluntarily; one who sacrifices himself; hence the word fedayeen.

I don't believe an external Jihad and peace can co-exist. It's like oil and water.
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Old 01-09-2009, 04:37 PM   #309
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by Naomi Klein heart Get your boots on!
I would love to see her live under Islamic law and talk about Apartheid. What about her sisters that are wanting equality of the sexes before the law? She's just so anti-U.S. and the west that it's nauseating. Jihadists would be proud.
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Old 01-09-2009, 04:38 PM   #310
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This is stupid. It's a war. I get the impression that Israel needs to even up the deaths to make liberals feel good.
And where exactly do you get this impression?
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Old 01-09-2009, 04:46 PM   #311
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And where exactly do you get this impression?
Just read the thread. Most people are complaining about excessive force. If Israel got it worse from the Hamas attacks and had little weaponry to respond the media would be for Israel. It's all about body count without looking at how it started. Some people (including Amnesty International) are saying that Israel is targeting civilians on purpose. It's already a well known tactic to have civilians get in the crossfire to create sympathy.
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Old 01-09-2009, 04:51 PM   #312
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Just read the thread. Most people are complaining about excessive force. If Israel got it worse from the Hamas attacks and had little weaponry to respond the media would be for Israel. It's all about body count without looking at how it started. Some people (including Amnesty International) are saying that Israel is targeting civilians on purpose. It's already a well known tactic to have civilians get in the crossfire to create sympathy.

You should really try and back up your shit generalizations for once...

Why don't you show me specifics of where you get this impression, otherwise just stop making them, they make you look incredibly ignorant.
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Old 01-09-2009, 04:58 PM   #313
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Melon hunny, all I have to say to you is that if you find yourself on the same side of the debate as someone who thinks that...

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Amnesty international is a left-wing group. They don't like war and put Israel and Palestine on a moral equivalency which helps Hamas
....you might want to rethink your angle on this.
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:00 PM   #314
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Melon hunny, all I have to say to you is that if you find yourself on the same side of the debate as someone who thinks that...



....you might want to rethink your angle on this.


are you sure you want to be associated with the other Ron Paul supporters?

seems kind of specious reasoning to me.
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:00 PM   #315
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You should really try and back up your shit generalizations for once...

Why don't you show me specifics of where you get this impression, otherwise just stop making them, they make you look incredibly ignorant.

BVS, if you want my advice I wouldn't bother debating with this tool.
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