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Old 12-29-2008, 05:11 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
Financeguy and Muldfeld.....

You are both pathetic little worms who wouldn't know a good thing if it bit you on the behind. I have no idea how you two managed to finish school seeing as both your brains aren't big enough to fill a thimble.....

Your sick, twisted way of thinking is a credit to every terrorist organization in the world and you deserve to be in the Al Qaida hall of fame.

P.S.: there's a point to this post.....
Ad hominem arguments aren't persuasive, a full scale military assault can't be spun in Israel's favour on the world stage, no matter how justified it is, even when the IDF takes care to minimise civilian casualties (at the expense of its own military personnel) the impression is always that of indiscriminate force being used against wholly innocent civilians (look at Jenin, when the dust eventually settled the casualties shifted from reports of hundreds of dead Palestinians in mass graves to around 60, with some 25 dead Israeli soldiers).
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:19 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
Financeguy and Muldfeld.....

You are both pathetic little worms who wouldn't know a good thing if it bit you on the behind. I have no idea how you two managed to finish school seeing as both your brains aren't big enough to fill a thimble.....

Your sick, twisted way of thinking is a credit to every terrorist organization in the world and you deserve to be in the Al Qaida hall of fame.



P.S.: there's a point to this post.....
yes, there is a point there, this post shows who's right and who's wrong, perfect example.

sarcasm
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Old 12-29-2008, 06:47 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
P.S.: there's a point to this post.....
If the point was to get yourself a warning, you've made it. Personal attacks are not allowed. If you can't discuss something without directly insulting those of the opposing viewpoint, perhaps you should sit the discussion out.
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:21 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
You are both pathetic little worms who wouldn't know a good thing if it bit you on the behind.
Please go on with this, because I'm having a tough time grasping your concept. I'd love to hear how the deaths of 300 civilians is a good thing.

ETA: For the record, financeguy is absolutely right. Israel has been one of the most bloodthirsty nations of the latter half of the twentieth century, and even the most cursory look at the facts proves that. This is a case of terrorists fighting terrorists, and none of them truly wants peace over there. Pathetic. I hope the innocent people of both Palestine and Israel, who are undoubtedly getting sick of constant war and death, shake off their warmongering "governments" and get people in power who are actually willing to recognize the other side, not necessarily as states, but at least as fellow human beings. Sad that that will not happen anytime soon.
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:50 PM   #20
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I hope the innocent people of both Palestine and Israel, who are undoubtedly getting sick of constant war and death, shake off their warmongering "governments" and get people in power who are actually willing to recognize the other side, not necessarily as states, but at least as fellow human beings. Sad that that will not happen anytime soon.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately it won't. The main reason is a mutual lack of trust. A lot of people would happily go or two-state solution if they would have believed the other's side sincere intentions, but few people do. It won't happen in this generation and I'm not so sure about the next one.

As far as the bombings concern – it won't solve anything in the long run. Nothing has really for the last decades. On the other hand – what would you do if cities & towns in your country had been continuously bombed for the last 8 years, and the bombing party denounced your mere existence? Even in times when a cease fire was announced, missiles were fired into Israel territories. It's not a rhetorical question by me – seriously, how would you deal with it? And please don't get all populist about it, it's the easy way.
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:54 PM   #21
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Robert Fisk: Leaders lie, civilians die, and lessons of history are ignored - Robert Fisk, Commentators - The Independent

Monday, 29 December 2008

We've got so used to the carnage of the Middle East that we don't care any more – providing we don't offend the Israelis. It's not clear how many of the Gaza dead are civilians, but the response of the Bush administration, not to mention the pusillanimous reaction of Gordon Brown, reaffirm for Arabs what they have known for decades: however they struggle against their antagonists, the West will take Israel's side. As usual, the bloodbath was the fault of the Arabs – who, as we all know, only understand force.

Ever since 1948, we've been hearing this balderdash from the Israelis – just as Arab nationalists and then Arab Islamists have been peddling their own lies: that the Zionist "death wagon" will be overthrown, that all Jerusalem will be "liberated". And always Mr Bush Snr or Mr Clinton or Mr Bush Jnr or Mr Blair or Mr Brown have called upon both sides to exercise "restraint" – as if the Palestinians and the Israelis both have F-18s and Merkava tanks and field artillery. Hamas's home-made rockets have killed just 20 Israelis in eight years, but a day-long blitz by Israeli aircraft that kills almost 300 Palestinians is just par for the course.

The blood-splattering has its own routine. Yes, Hamas provoked Israel's anger, just as Israel provoked Hamas's anger, which was provoked by Israel, which was provoked by Hamas, which ... See what I mean? Hamas fires rockets at Israel, Israel bombs Hamas, Hamas fires more rockets and Israel bombs again and ... Got it? And we demand security for Israel – rightly – but overlook this massive and utterly disproportionate slaughter by Israel. It was Madeleine Albright who once said that Israel was "under siege" – as if Palestinian tanks were in the streets of Tel Aviv.

By last night, the exchange rate stood at 296 Palestinians dead for one dead Israeli. Back in 2006, it was 10 Lebanese dead for one Israeli dead. This weekend was the most inflationary exchange rate in a single day since – the 1973 Middle East War? The 1967 Six Day War? The 1956 Suez War? The 1948 Independence/Nakba War? It's obscene, a gruesome game – which Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, unconsciously admitted when he spoke this weekend to Fox TV. "Our intention is to totally change the rules of the game," Barak said.

Exactly. Only the "rules" of the game don't change. This is a further slippage on the Arab-Israeli exchanges, a percentage slide more awesome than Wall Street's crashing shares, though of not much interest in the US which – let us remember – made the F-18s and the Hellfire missiles which the Bush administration pleads with Israel to use sparingly.

Quite a lot of the dead this weekend appear to have been Hamas members, but what is it supposed to solve? Is Hamas going to say: "Wow, this blitz is awesome – we'd better recognise the state of Israel, fall in line with the Palestinian Authority, lay down our weapons and pray we are taken prisoner and locked up indefinitely and support a new American 'peace process' in the Middle East!" Is that what the Israelis and the Americans and Gordon Brown think Hamas is going to do?

Yes, let's remember Hamas's cynicism, the cynicism of all armed Islamist groups. Their need for Muslim martyrs is as crucial to them as Israel's need to create them. The lesson Israel thinks it is teaching – come to heel or we will crush you – is not the lesson Hamas is learning. Hamas needs violence to emphasise the oppression of the Palestinians – and relies on Israel to provide it. A few rockets into Israel and Israel obliges.

Not a whimper from Tony Blair, the peace envoy to the Middle East who's never been to Gaza in his current incarnation. Not a bloody word.

We hear the usual Israeli line. General Yaakov Amidror, the former head of the Israeli army's "research and assessment division" announced that "no country in the world would allow its citizens to be made the target of rocket attacks without taking vigorous steps to defend them". Quite so. But when the IRA were firing mortars over the border into Northern Ireland, when their guerrillas were crossing from the Republic to attack police stations and Protestants, did Britain unleash the RAF on the Irish Republic? Did the RAF bomb churches and tankers and police stations and zap 300 civilians to teach the Irish a lesson? No, it did not. Because the world would have seen it as criminal behaviour. We didn't want to lower ourselves to the IRA's level.

Yes, Israel deserves security. But these bloodbaths will not bring it. Not since 1948 have air raids protected Israel. Israel has bombed Lebanon thousands of times since 1975 and not one has eliminated "terrorism". So what was the reaction last night? The Israelis threaten ground attacks. Hamas waits for another battle. Our Western politicians crouch in their funk holes. And somewhere to the east – in a cave? a basement? on a mountainside? – a well-known man in a turban smiles.
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:17 PM   #22
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In Lebanon, the leader of the Shiite militant group Hezbollah, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, put his fighters on alert, expressing strong support for Hamas and saying that he believed Israel might try to wage a two-front war, as it did in 2006. He called for a mass demonstration in Beirut on Monday. And he, too, denounced Egypt’s leaders. “If you don’t open the borders, you are accomplices in the killing,” he said in a televised speech.
Wonderful.

I think it's highly disturbing that Israel has kicked out journalists from large areas surrounding Gaza.

Mostly, I'm tired of the Middle East.
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:39 PM   #23
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Mostly, I'm tired of the Middle East.
This is my sentiment.

I was reading this article, and the photos really caught my attention.

"Palestian Protestors" fighting with slingshots. Those prostestors looks about 12 or 13. Can't they find better photos to depict "Palestian Protestors"?

My Way News - Israel says Gaza assault 'war to the bitter end'
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Old 12-29-2008, 06:01 PM   #24
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Well said. The mainstream US media is always kissing butt to the Zionists. There are lots of Jews who are critical of Israel, but all of America is made to think they are anti-semites like the Nazis if they criticize it. All the US media outlets state that the Israeli attacks are "in response to" Hamas' attacks.....

What we have -- even among news men like PBS' David Brancaccio -- is apologies for Israeli terrorism and a kind of disgust for Muslim terrorism. Israel gets carte blanche because Muslims have to pay for the crimes of Hitler and the West's cowardice before and during WWII, apparently.
I take comfort from the fact that surveys have shown that US Jews are more opposed to the Iraq invasion than any other ethnic group - a point that the the neo-conservative ideologues prefer to ignore.

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Third, Hamas is only 27 years old! It's time the US and Israeli media stop blaming Hamas for every act of terrorism. Israel has done plenty of dehumanizing, criminal things for decades before Hamas entered the picture.
This is a very good point. Palestinian violence is principally reactive. This point is often missed.

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Originally Posted by Muldfeld View Post
Israel was founded on terrorism -- killing and ethnically cleansing Palestinians and bombing UN workers. This is the same old strategy Israel has been using since its inception and American helicopters and arms allow them to do this and America shares responsibility for this. So, Americans had better remember this the next time a terrorist wants to attack America.
Again, a good point. Americans who complain about Middle Eastern conflicts taking up too much time on their TV screens (perhaps it distracts them from watching Pop Idol, or whatever) would do well to see the interlinkages between the politicians they elect and children being murdered in Gaza by a force of illegal occupation.

Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinch were the only two US Presidential candidates with an evenhanded approach to the issue but, unfortunately, they were mostly sidelined by the mainstream media.
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Old 12-29-2008, 08:16 PM   #25
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financeguy and muldfeld....

much respect to both of you sensible individuals...
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Old 12-30-2008, 03:02 AM   #26
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To financeguy and Muldfeld,

I would like to apologize to you for my harsh words.
I really didn't mean anything I said to you - I wanted to get your response so I could prove a point but it sort of backfired on me and I admit that I was very wrong in using both of you to prove it.

You should know by now that I would never purposely insult anyone on the board who has a different opinion than me - I have deep respect for everyone here, even those who condemm my country.

I will make my case in a different way - I am composing a post that will outline the case for this action.

I do hope you will forgive me. I promise I won't ever provoke another member of this board just to prove a point - that was wrong of me and, again, I apologize.
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Old 12-30-2008, 03:43 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
To financeguy and Muldfeld,
.
I am sorry some felt you had to apologize.

I clearly understood your post to be personal towards them-
because you felt their post were personally directed at you,
as you are a frequent poster in here always presenting / and supporting Israeli defense policies

I may not agree with your opinions, but I can not make a better case for mine as I have never been th the Mid-East and can not fully empathize with your situation

I do feel your opinions do contribute to this forum, because yours is a unique perspective.

But, it does seem there is a bit of a "circle the wagons" around regular posters and more popular opinions


it's late, Im tired, I hope I am making some sense here
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Old 12-30-2008, 10:12 AM   #28
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I think everyone here would agree, the situation in the Middle East is a terrible one. I am glad that folks take the time to post different opinions, because it has given me a greater understanding. Hopefully President Elect Obama will be able to help establish a peace agreement that will be embraced by both sides.
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:01 PM   #29
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how would you deal with it? .
Somehow I feel indiscriminately firing missiles into civilian residential areas would not be high on my list of possible solutions.
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:59 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
I am composing a post that will outline the case for this action.
I am very interested in your viewpoint on this and hope you post despite the likelihood that most will criticize and disagree.
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