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Old 01-08-2009, 12:55 PM   #256
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I wish someone would just put out a poll:

Should Israel exist?

a) There should be no Palestine, only Israel
b) There should be both an Israel and Palestine
c) There should only be a Palestine

The people could argue the history of Israel and Palestine which is where main arguments are about. The devil is in the details.
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Old 01-08-2009, 02:01 PM   #257
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Right now Israel voted for A

and with U S backing that has been the situation since 1948.
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Old 01-08-2009, 02:06 PM   #258
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Not sure, what to make of these developments.

Quote:
nd Front? Rockets land in Israel’s north
By Associated Press | Thursday, January 8, 2009 |
Home - BostonHerald.com | Middle East

NAHARIYA, Israel — Residents of this northern Israeli town awoke today to one of their country’s worst nightmares: Rockets from Lebanon and the possibility of a second front in a battle that has raged for two weeks in Gaza.

No armed group claimed responsibility for the two Katyusha rockets that landed in Israel, including one that ripped through a crowded nursing home. The most likely suspects are thought to be small Palestinian factions operating in south Lebanon and known to posses Katyushas.

Hezbollah guerrillas, who fought a 34-day war against Israel in 2006, denied involvement.

Quiet returned to the border after a brief retaliation by Israeli artillery. But the point had been made: Israel may be tied up in an offensive in the Gaza Strip aimed at halting Hamas rocket fire at the country’s south, but millions more Israelis are vulnerable to the whims and rockets of shadowy militant groups from the north.

Israel now faces threats on two of its borders from Islamic organizations with close ties to Iran. Hamas rockets threaten about 1 million Israelis out of a population of 7 million, and Israel’s military believes the rockets in the arsenal of the Lebanese group Hezbollah can hit most of the remaining 6 million.

"We’re all a bit traumatized at the moment," said Sarit Arieli, 44, who was jolted out of bed by the sound of the rocket’s impact in Nahariya and was standing later outside the nursing home it hit. But she added, "I think we’re stronger than them, and I believe the world will be with us. We are fighting for our survival."

The rocket fell through the roof of the nursing home’s kitchen. Light from the new hole in the ceiling illuminated plates with cream cheese that were about to be served to the home’s residents just after 7 a.m., when the rocket hit.

The floor was covered in rubble, and a dazed-looking elderly woman sat in the lobby not far away. One person was lightly injured in the strike.

Thursday’s rockets were fired from territory under Hezbollah’s de facto control. But Hezbollah — which ignited a devastating 2006 war that left swaths of Lebanon in ruins — has said it does not want to drag the country into another conflict.

Backed by Iran and Syria, Hezbollah likely wants to avoid damaging its newfound standing as a credible player on Lebanon’s political stage. After showing its military strength against Israel in 2006 and then again in May 2008 against its Lebanese rivals — when it took control of large parts of Beirut by force — Hezbollah is now a partner in Lebanon’s government with veto power over all decisions.

Its leaders have been making do with fiery speeches.

Israeli officials suggested the rocket strike was an isolated incident that would not lead to escalation. "We look at it as a local event, something that was predictable," Cabinet Minister Isaac Herzog said in a visit to the southern town of Ashekelon, which has been struck by nearly 100 Hamas rockets since the Gaza offensive began on Dec. 27.

"It’s very scary and sad if another city has to adjust to this new reality," said Yehudit Sheetrit, 33, who works at a clothing store in an Ashekelon mall that was nearly empty because residents have been staying inside for safety.

Nahariya residents are not new to rocket attacks — the town was hit by hundreds of Hezbollah rockets in the 2006 fighting and was repeatedly targeted in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s by Palestinian and Shiite guerrillas in Lebanon.

Hezbollah denied it was behind Thursday’s attack and reported it without elaboration on its Al-Manar TV station. But the group has been suspected in the past by Israel and its opponents in Lebanon of using allied radical groups to strike Israel with a lower risk of retaliation.

One such group allied with Hezbollah, the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, had warned it might open other fronts against Israel if the Gaza offensive continued.

Its officials refused to deny or confirm they were behind the rocket attack, but spokesman Anwar Raja in Syria seemed to voice support, telling the AP it was "a natural outcome ... of the Israeli aggression."

There has been rocket fire into Israel from Lebanon twice since the end of the 2006 war. And on Dec. 25, before the Israeli offensive began, the Lebanese military said troops discovered seven rockets rigged to timers that were on the verge of firing near the border with Israel.

Lebanon has the most to lose from a new war, having only recently begun recovering from the ravages of the last one. In a statement Thursday, Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said the rocket fire "is the work of parties who stand to lose from the continued stability in Lebanon."

Israel, too, does not appear to be eager for a second fight.

"Even though we have the ability to respond with great force, the response needs to be carefully considered and responsible," Cabinet minister Meir Sheetrit told Army Radio. "We don’t need to play into their hands."
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Old 01-08-2009, 02:34 PM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
Right now Israel voted for A

and with U S backing that has been the situation since 1948.
I think the U.S. chose B since they have the power to choose A if they really wanted to.

I want to see arguments from people who don't think Israel should be there. In my opinion Hamas and supporters of Hamas have shown they choose C. The history is very complicated and it would be nice to see the historical argument instead of talking about seize-fires starting and ending.
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Old 01-08-2009, 02:53 PM   #260
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A is the reality

B is only lip service

C more or less. was the reality before 1948.

Palestine (British Palestine) existed with a 20 % Jewish population that lived much better than the Palestinians have lived since 1948.


Who gives a flying f*ck what you or I think or if that worthless sack, W says, "there should be a Palestinian State."

and we have people writing in here the the whole thing just bores them, who cares.
children are being burned alive.



you think the U S chose B, there is no evidence of that

There should be no world hunger, child labor, pollution, national debt, trans fats, corruption in politics, Antares Auto-Tune, (an automatic tuning device)
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Old 01-08-2009, 03:29 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
A is the reality
B is only lip service
C more or less. was the reality before 1948.
Palestine (British Palestine) existed with a 20 % Jewish population that lived much better than the Palestinians have lived since 1948.
Who gives a flying f*ck what you or I think or if that worthless sack, W says, "there should be a Palestinian State."
and we have people writing in here the the whole thing just bores them, who cares.
children are being burned alive.
you think the U S chose B, there is no evidence of that
There should be no world hunger, child labor, pollution, national debt, trans fats, corruption in politics, Antares Auto-Tune, (an automatic tuning device)
Well considering there is a Palestinian state, culture, flag, and national anthem "A" hasn't actually happened in the present moment.

To me the more boring discussion is a circular discussion on seize-fires and rockets. It's just emotion and people pointing fingers. That's what people are bored of. There's no progression to the dialogue.

I don't want people to dodge the subject. What do other people on this thread want? There are people for part A, B, and C in this thread. Just even answering A, B or C would be better than nothing.

Are Israels claims to that territory just or not? I want to hear people's opinions. No dodging the subject.

I'll stick my neck out and say I want B since there are people established in this position already and wiping out a country after it's started just won't work. I think many Muslims would like to see the Islamic influence to be as it was in the 1600's which is option C at a minimum. I think these people in particular are the reason there is no peace. The reason there was peace in Ireland is because the vast majority of the public was not interested in the continued fighting. I don't feel that way about Hamas.

I also believe that the Jews were expelled from the region in the past and after WWII it made sense for them to go back because of the persecution they experienced everywhere else even before the holocaust. They weren't even allowed to own land for centuries. Muslims can have Mecca and Jews can have Jerusalem.

Now if other people can state their opinion there would be progression on the subject. What would you like to see A, B, or C and why?
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Old 01-08-2009, 04:00 PM   #262
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Another IDF war crime: preventing the International Red Cross access to injured civilians, and failing to assist injured civilians. Israel criticised after 'shocking' discovery of exhausted children | World news | guardian.co.uk

But of course they do all they can to prevent loss of civilian lives don't they? And by the way, the incident and the events in Gaza are apparently so bad that the International Red Cross, in probably the first time in its history is directly accusing a combatant of war crimes. It normally remains steadfastly neutral, but having toddlers starve over the body of their dead mother while IDF soldiers are not 10 feet away, I wonder how the supporters of Israel can marry that to their tales of their careful, caring, friendly army?

Oh and they attacked a clearly marked UN convoy killing two UN drivers, despite the fact the UN had cleared the operation with them beforehand. This has caused the UN to pull out, it's almost as if they don't want any pesky witnesses.

Israel (like any combatant) has obligations under international law to feed, and medically treat, civilians affected by its own actions. 750,000 people in Gaza depend absolutely on the UN for food.

I trust Israel has contingency plans compliant with international law to provide them all with a decent breakfast tomorrow.
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:05 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
The reason there was peace in Ireland is because the vast majority of the public was not interested in the continued fighting. I don't feel that way about Hamas.
Since when is Hamas the same thing as the "vast majority of the public"?
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:32 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popshopper View Post

Oh and they attacked a clearly marked UN convoy killing two UN drivers, despite the fact the UN had cleared the operation with them beforehand. This has caused the UN to pull out, it's almost as if they don't want any pesky witnesses.
This is the second time this has happened.

Quote:
The United Nations suspended its food aid deliveries into Gaza on Thursday after one of its contract drivers was killed during an Israeli attack on a delivery convoy at a border crossing, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency said.

Three forklift trucks operated by the only trucking company authorized to carry out deliveries near the Israeli-Gaza border were collecting food at Kerem Shalom crossing when they came under Israeli fire at 9 a.m. on Thursday, killing one of the drivers, named as Bassem Quta, 32, an official of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency said.

"We have suspended all food distribution because of lack of security," according to the official, Andrew Whitley, director of the United Nations relief agency office in New York.

He said the delivery had involved prior coordination with the Israeli military and food deliveries would be suspended until Israel could guarantee the safety of its convoys.

The latest incident followed a similar attack on Monday when two trucks were hit by missiles from a helicopter as the trucks were leaving a garage in Gaza City, Mr. Whitley said. That attack left two dead.
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:36 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
I want to see arguments from people who don't think Israel should be there.
If you think there are any C voters posting in this thread - or who are members of this site for that matter - then you haven't been paying attention.

Do you really want to see Islamic extremist arguments?
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:47 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
A UN-enforced ceasefire, backed by international sanctions for violations from either side, calling for an end to all violent attacks (including targeted assassinations by Israel and missile fire from Gaza); the reopening of Gaza's border with Israel and resumption of normal trade, subject to inspections; a prisoner exchange; and rapid dismantling of the illegal Israeli settlements wouldn't make a bad preamble for a return to negotiations on an independent Palestinian state. And an initial good-faith gesture from Israel in the direction of eventual, inevitable compromises on right of return (a limited annual refugee return quota, and/or establishment of an international fund to help with the costs of resettling refugees) would certainly help to facilitate that process.
purpleoscar, this seems like a pretty reasonable approach.

What do you think about the occupied territories and self-determination for Palestine?
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Old 01-08-2009, 06:12 PM   #267
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purpleoscar, this seems like a pretty reasonable approach.

What do you think about the occupied territories and self-determination for Palestine?
I don't mind this but I don't think the international community will really back up sanctions on either side. It's still a war to me and I don't think Palestinians think Israel should exist. As long as they think they are winning a war and the west is weakening resolve there will be terrorists who will exploit it.

The west to me right now wants to continue to push for a seize-fire and will keep pushing for that so it goes off the media radar until the next incident. It will just keep going.
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Old 01-08-2009, 06:13 PM   #268
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Since when is Hamas the same thing as the "vast majority of the public"?
I believe the non-existence of Israel is popular in Palestine.
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Old 01-08-2009, 06:19 PM   #269
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I believe the non-existence of Israel is popular in Palestine.
I'm sure they wish Israel wasn't around, and given how things have been in the last 60 years, you'd probably wish the same if you were in their shoes.

That doesn't mean that the "vast majority of people" are hellbent on destroying Israel. Unless you think there is something innately murderous and violent about them that will never change.

What do you think will happen in 50 years when the Palestinians clearly outnumber Israeli Jews and we have a real apartheid complete with bantustans (which already exist)?
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Old 01-08-2009, 07:10 PM   #270
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I'm sure they wish Israel wasn't around, and given how things have been in the last 60 years, you'd probably wish the same if you were in their shoes.
Maybe they should look to themselves and their own governments to solve economic problems. If Eno is correct that it has to do with economics then there are plenty of solutions available. If they stop bombing Israel then peace will start, and then they have to look to trade, private property rights, and the typical institutions we take for granted to allieviate the poverty there.

Everything else involving terrorism is war. If in the end we get cynical and judge everything by war then whoever militarily has power has power and that's the end of the conversation. They can't want peace and hunger for victory over Israel at the same time.
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