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Old 01-07-2009, 10:38 PM   #241
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But haven't you heard the latest? It's actually the crafty anti-semite Arabists that control the media

if you calm down and take another read, the only point that has been made is the very clear point that Hamas makes it a point to parade dead kids for the cameras. even if they've already been to the morgue, they are trotted out for the cameras who are naturally going to film such a dramatic display. it's a complex thing here, you see, since one obviously feels nothing but sympathy and distress at the sight of a dead child, and yet one is quite capable of also feeling distress at the blatant manipulation of the tragedy and understand quite well how dead kids help Hamas.


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There's a lot of evidence for this sinister Arabist conspiracy - Irvine has already provided it. He saw an Arab youth in Glasgow burning a US flag one day ten years ago. That's pretty conclusive, it has to be said.

it has to be said, you're doing a great job of falling into line with those educated leftist keffiyah clad Euro-elite who's undercurrent of anti-Semitism amidst the sexiness of "no justice, no peace" did much to cause me to take a second look at the Israelis and realize that there's a complexity there. and "complexity" we can take to be a morally neutral word.

at least you're not a Stalin apologist.

and it was 6 years ago, at the height of the second intifada.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:40 PM   #242
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Those crafty zionists control the media!

in the US at least, unflinching support for Israel is much higher amongst those Christians who are breathlessly anticipating The Rapture than it is amongst The Jews of the Upper West Side.

and in that dynamic, i think you can see some racism and Islamaphobia at work.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:40 PM   #243
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And anti-semitism, we all know what happens to those Jews who aren't for Jesus.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:55 PM   #244
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Could you say more on this?
A few more thoughts on US strategic interest in Israel and the potential to broker peace...

Setting aside for a moment the emotional and religious anchors of the US-Israel alliance, for the US, Israel operates as a military and intelligence base in the Middle East. Hence the massive foreign aid and unconditional political support...at the expense of the Palestinians.

Now that permanent military bases exist in Iraq and there is a groundswell of political will for peace coming from the masses, perhaps as the Stephen Zunes article suggested, the US is now in a position to apply "tough love".
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:59 PM   #245
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I think a huge problem is the support Israel receives from the US. It creates a biased fight as if the first world countries are "siding" with the israelis and are therefore against the Palestinians. I think it makes it a total us and them fight with the palestinians pssed off and even more desperate, because they see the fight as not just Israel but the whole bloody western world. The UN is a piece of weak piss, they mean nothing and no one gives a shit about them and their bloody "peace brokering" deals they try to make.

What do the Palestinians really want? Do they really want the removal of all Israelies or is that some line thats been trotted out. Perhaps what they want is a little room to breathe, proper water and food, electricity and the chance to prosper. Not growing up hemmed in, under constant tension from the 20,000 soldiers tanks and missiles staring them in the face across the wall and a feeling that SOMEONE other then a desert land full of arabs are in their corner. I do agree with the fact that Hamas are raving lunatics, but this war, and the illing of hundreds of palestinians are doing Hamas a world of favours inciting more hatred towards israel.

What is different about Islam and Judaism? That one believes Mohammad was a prophet and the other one doesn't eat pigs? Yet each one thinks their religion is the right one and shits all over the other one and therefore with both of them being raving religious people, I don't see it getting any better. Religion and belief is as deep as you can go with a person.
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:06 AM   #246
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Or am I not getting your meaning?.
I think yours is a very apologetic retort.
Responding to implications that were not made.

Primarily, I was addressing the Native American analogy but I did try to somewhat illustrate (globally) why those supporting the creation of the Israeli State in 1940 would be more 'enlightened' than the American colonialists of 1740 and 1840. If you want to disagree with that, go ahead.

I didn't try to paint a "rosy" picture, I tried to illustrate the industrial/modern revolution in a few descriptives. Stating that, unless you are blinded by certain loyalty, you'd have to assume that there were 'things' known* by the Zionist movement that weren't in play when the Americans purged the Eastern and Southeastern American coast of it's inahbitants. But again, if you want to make apologies that this* weren't the case, go ahead. I give them more credit than that.

I also didn't make any such assertion of it being a "shocking anomaly", I merely said there was no excuse for it. Again, you making the implications where there weren't any. I'll quote myself, because perhaps you missed it the first time. "There is no excuse of ignorance here". =POINT

I didn't address other conflicts of the time (1940's) nor did I say Israel was the "shocking anomaly". I also didn't try and imply that the world was as "enlightened" in 1940 as it was today. I implied more enlightened than 100 and 200 years before, sure.
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:38 AM   #247
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And anti-semitism, we all know what happens to those Jews who aren't for Jesus.


come now, someone's got to build the temple.

then half will repent and accept Jesus. the other half will follow the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Scientologists to hell.
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:16 AM   #248
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Primarily, I was addressing the Native American analogy but I did try to somewhat illustrate (globally) why those supporting the creation of the Israeli State in 1940 would be more 'enlightened' than the American colonialists of 1740 and 1840. If you want to disagree with that, go ahead.
I guess you're more impressed than I am with "ignorance," which is seldom as unwilled as the word suggests, as an excuse. Or with "knowing things" as an ethical brake on obsessive fixations with collective security, consequences be damned. Not that I thought much of the analogy you were responding to either, since why anyone would nonchalantly compare their country's founding to events which annihilated as many people(s) as the invasion of the Americas did is beyond me. Perhaps from a certain perspective it's more honest.

I can see this severely annoyed you for some reason so I'll drop it.
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:52 AM   #249
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come now, someone's got to build the temple.

then half will repent and accept Jesus. the other half will follow the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Scientologists to hell.
I think that your forgetting the worst of all forms of infidelity

Even Jews are people of the book, and they have historically had protection under the dhimmi laws of Islamic Rule.

But then again there are a lot of atheistic Jews out there, maybe there is a correlation, why I'm taking an agnostic Hoffman to a concert at the end of the month.
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Old 01-08-2009, 07:40 AM   #250
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the other half will follow the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Scientologists to hell.
It's 2/3.
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Old 01-08-2009, 08:52 AM   #251
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What are you talking about Finance Guy? It's Brian Eno. Of course it does.
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:01 AM   #252
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Oh look! there's the IDF using palestinians as civilian shields.


“Our sources in Gaza report that Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position,” said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International’s Middle East and North Africa Programme. “This clearly increases the risk to the Palestinian families concerned and means they are effectively being used as human shields.” Gaza civilians endangered by the military tactics of both sides | Amnesty International

That's 20 Israeli civilians killed by rockets around Gaza in 10 years compared to 680 Palestinians dead in a week as a result of Israeli action.

As no proof of the use of the UN school as Hamas base has been forthcoming we can add it to the IDF's list of shame:" 17,500 dead – almost all civilians, most of them children and women – in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon; the 1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in the Sabra-Chatila massacre; the 1996 Qana massacre of 106 Lebanese civilian refugees, more than half of them children, at a UN base; the massacre of the Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by the Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter crew; the 1,000 dead of that same 2006 bombardment and Lebanese invasion, almost all of them civilians" http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...k-1230046.html

Everything the Israeli's condemn Hamas for, they do as well, only far more efficiently.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:48 AM   #253
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contact your Congress(wo)men, contact the Obama transition team, and sign the petition posted at J Street, the advocacy wing of the only progressive Israel-policy PAC.

We won't get anyone's ear in Washington if we don't purposefully organize and act to make our voices heard.
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:18 PM   #254
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does eno watch battlestar galactica?
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:43 PM   #255
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does eno watch battlestar galactica?


if i only had one question to ask Brian Eno,

that's what it would be.
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