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Old 01-07-2009, 05:19 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
was the stated goal of the IRA the total annihilation of the United Kingdom?
the stated goal, is so often trotted out as cover for so many unjust actions


but the same people that trot it out never mention the counter part


1. Hamas -

a.stated goal - the elimination of the State of Israel (not accomplished)


2. Israel / IDF

a. stated goal - the elimination of Palestine - accomplished
b. expulsion on native Palestinian people from their ancestral homeland - accomplished
c. continued expansion and taking of Palestinian land - accomplished and on going
d. containment of Palestinian people on limited land area with Isralei control - accomplished
etc. , etc.


The Israelis biggest fear is that the Palestinians might be as successful and ruthless as they are.
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:24 PM   #212
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the stated goal of Israel is the elimination of Palestine?

i think you want to do some re-thinking here.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:01 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by AliEnvy View Post
If outside leaders (primarily the US) wanted peace, there would be peace.
Could you say more on this?
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:11 PM   #214
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No, I AM saying that there is a double standard where Israel is concerned. We're required to give back our own land whereas other countries aren't asked to give back land that wasn't theirs to begin with.
Those countries were ignorant with respect to how they viewed the natives of those lands. The U.S. has spent the last 200 years trying to right some of those wrongs with the Native Americans. It can't never be fully restituted to those people.

But that's just the thing, we're talking 17th, 18th, 19th century imperialism here. The World, unequivocally is a different place by the middle of the 20th century. Television emerging, paper presses and radio stations in every major city, cosmopolitan educators and improved and spreading universities.

There is no excuse of ignorance here, there is no excuse at all aside from the ridiculous divine argument.

I've got massive sympathy for the Native Americans, having some of their blood running through my veins and having seen first hand what those reservations are like. Knowing now what we know today, things would be handled differently. You can't say that in the mid 40's that perceptions of those people residing where Israel currently exists were all that different from what they are today.

If you say they were different, then you can make the equivocation between the situations. You can say 'well, we were ignorant, we viewed them as subhuman/uncivilized and we needed to guide them on their way'...besides Thoth or Zeus gave us this land.

If you say they are the same, how can you draw the parallel in the first place?

I don't have all the answers, certainly, and I sympathize with elements of both sides but I reject this argument. It is not the same situation.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:14 PM   #215
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This "annihilation of Israel" is really a moot point. Hamas may WANT that, but it's akin to some crazy lunatic on the street corner selling pencils in a cup yelling about assassinating the US president. Israel has the 5th largest military in the world, a nuclear arsenal and could in 5 minutes annihilate the rest of the Middle East.

So this really becomes a talking point because it won't and cannot be done, but it's a nice thing to throw around as if it's a real threat. It is not, never was, and never will be.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:16 PM   #216
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Do you think that there are some anti-Israeli groups that don't see a problem with a nuclear firestorm?

I can think of at least 2 supposedly pro-Israeli groups that want to see it.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:18 PM   #217
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Do you think that there are some anti-Israeli groups that don't see a problem with a nuclear firestorm?
Of course they are but those groups don't have them, so again, this is not related to the situation on the ground, or the situation for the last 60 years or the last 20+ years that Hamas existed with its "stated goal".

I've heard it said the whole region should be nuked to smitherines (and by surprising factions).
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:22 PM   #218
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I don't think that it is would be surprising for more Islamic states to get nuclear weapons in the next 20 years, I think it would change quite a lot of things.

Now that is irrelevant to Hamas, because its stated goal and actions are very rejectionist. I can't see how that type of religious organisation would ever agree to a two state solution, they benefit too much from oppression, poverty and Israeli violence.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:23 PM   #219
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I wonder if Americans (or Germans or Canadians) were occupied in the same fashion, if they'd throw rocks or lob over a rocket or two as well.

Is that not a fair question?
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:30 PM   #220
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Now that is irrelevant to Hamas, because its stated goal and actions are very rejectionist. I can't see how that type of religious organisation would ever agree to a two state solution, they benefit too much from oppression, poverty and Israeli violence.
And public support for Hamas in Gaza had dropped to below 20% prior to this latest Israeli incursion. With new elections coming up and the Palestinians in Gaza obviously experiencing a case of buyer's remorse, this is an even worse move by Israel which may now consolidate weakening support for Hamas which was likely on its way out, to be replaced by Fatah.

Again, total tone deafness, but it's like that with almost every Israeli campaign.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:35 PM   #221
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If Islamists didn't think democracy was a form of blasphemy they would be so much simpler to route.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:39 PM   #222
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And you know people sit here shocked that the Palestinians would elect murderous Hamas thugs, as opposed to what? Fatah which is even more corrupt? It's like these people had the choice between shit and diarrhea, and we're surprised by it.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:45 PM   #223
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I wonder if Americans (or Germans or Canadians) were occupied in the same fashion, if they'd throw rocks or lob over a rocket or two as well.

Is that not a fair question?

Well, the British born subjects, or Colonists that became the Americans were outraged over a little taxation. They weren't even seriously occupied or oppressed.

And their bloody attacks and carnage is seen through rose colored glasses as some kind of divinely inspired righteous battle.

Please no more fair questions
and objective analysis will not help with arriving at the right conclusions.
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Old 01-07-2009, 08:12 PM   #224
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So this really becomes a talking point because it won't and cannot be done, but it's a nice thing to throw around as if it's a real threat. It is not, never was, and never will be.

you should tell this to Hamas.

maybe if a leader were to say this out loud and in public, he might not be gunned down.

but he probably would be.
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Old 01-07-2009, 08:14 PM   #225
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I can't see how that type of religious organisation would ever agree to a two state solution, they benefit too much from oppression, poverty and Israeli violence.

this, in a nutshell, is what i've been trying to get across.
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