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Old 01-07-2009, 10:55 AM   #196
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I would like to thank you all for this very interesting and important exchange.

I will continue to address any of your comments to the best of my ability tomorrow. It is now 6 o'clock pm and I have to go home...lol.

I truly appreciate this debate and your interest.

Thanks and good night.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:02 AM   #197
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Goodnight. Stay safe.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:31 AM   #198
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YouTube - Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale FL

Ft. Lauderdale Pro-Hamas protest. This particular group thinks Israel shouldn't exist. This is why I don't expect any outside leaders can actually achieve peace between both sides.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:04 PM   #199
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It matters to the civilians who are by and large the ones dying. It really doesn't matter whether you are attacking an army, a terrorist organisation or a cow. There are rights civilians should have which the IDF do not afford them, and no it doesn't matter what Hamas do, they're terrorists which the IDF claim not to be, you want to be treated like a civilised nation then act like one. Do don't have to afford Hamas any rights to avoid killing civilians. The problem as it is is the IDF think so little of a palestinian civilians life they would bomb an entire block to take out one mortar even the US doesn't do that in Iraq they go in with troops. You've got the 5th biggest army in the world you could try actually sending them in to take out the terrorists.


so does the blame, then, for all these civilian lie in the hands of Hamas?

we know Hamas loves dead Palestinians. why would they not do things to ensure they get as many of them as possible.

there's no question it's the Palestinians who are suffering the most, by far. i'm just not sure that it's the IDF that's inflicting the most suffering.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:13 PM   #200
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YouTube - Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale FL

Ft. Lauderdale Pro-Hamas protest. This particular group thinks Israel shouldn't exist. This is why I don't expect any outside leaders can actually achieve peace between both sides.
Did I miss something or was the only mention of "pro-hamas" in the title of the video? Do angry signs saying "Israel go to hell" mean that they're saying Israel shouldn't exist?

Insinuating support for Palestinians is support for Hamas or terrorism is an intimidation tactic similar to "unpatriotic Americans" over opposition to the invastion Iraq that has worn really, really thin over the last number of years.

There will always be extremist jihad nutjobs. Ongoing Israeli oppression is increasing their numbers and strength.

If outside leaders (primarily the US) wanted peace, there would be peace.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:32 PM   #201
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There will always be extremist jihad nutjobs. Ongoing Israeli oppression is increasing their numbers and strength.
I think Iran is.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:36 PM   #202
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so does the blame, then, for all these civilian lie in the hands of Hamas?

we know Hamas loves dead Palestinians. why would they not do things to ensure they get as many of them as possible.

there's no question it's the Palestinians who are suffering the most, by far. i'm just not sure that it's the IDF that's inflicting the most suffering.
Irvine, from your earlier posts mentioning what you saw as flagrant anti-semitism and your personal experience with oppression, I can understand your sympathy and empathy for the plight of the Jews (as distinct from the state of Israel).

Your tenacity in defending the human rights of gay people is worthy of tremendous respect so I find it really puzzling that as a human rights advocate and a crusader against oppression, you seem uncertain about who is inflicting the most suffering.

I don't mean to offend you and if I have, my apologies. Your opinion, as everyone's is valid, I just find it surprising.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:44 PM   #203
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I think Iran is.
And they can't do better than antiquated, homemade rockets?

This is what hundreds of millions of dollars (mentioned by AchtungBono) from Iran to Hamas is buying?
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:49 PM   #204
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Insinuating support for Palestinians is support for Hamas or terrorism is an intimidation tactic similar to "unpatriotic Americans" over opposition to the invastion Iraq that has worn really, really thin over the last number of years.
totally agree with you here.


Quote:
If outside leaders (primarily the US) wanted peace, there would be peace.

don't agree with you here.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:50 PM   #205
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And they can't do better than antiquated, homemade rockets?

This is what hundreds of millions of dollars (mentioned by AchtungBono) from Iran to Hamas is buying?
Iran is working on their special bomb for later.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:55 PM   #206
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Irvine, from your earlier posts mentioning what you saw as flagrant anti-semitism and your personal experience with oppression, I can understand your sympathy and empathy for the plight of the Jews (as distinct from the state of Israel).

Your tenacity in defending the human rights of gay people is worthy of tremendous respect so I find it really puzzling that as a human rights advocate and a crusader against oppression, you seem uncertain about who is inflicting the most suffering.

I don't mean to offend you and if I have, my apologies. Your opinion, as everyone's is valid, I just find it surprising.

i think i've mentioned several times that i think it is the Palestinians who are suffering the most, no question. but i think Hamas makes them suffer. i think Hamas is a murderous theocratic mafioso organization that uncovers bodies in the morgue so they can parade them through the streets. i think Hamas wants more dead Palestinians so they can wail about "no justice, no peace."

but i can understand how my anger towards Hamas, and my honest (i swear, i'm just trying to be as honest as i can) attempt to understand the Israeli perspective (combined with, yes, what i did see as actual anti-semitism and reactive anti-americanism in Europe a few years ago -- i have video of arab kids wearing NY Yankee hats in Glasgow burning an American flag and stamping it out with their Nikes -- so, in my experience, the burden of unpacking legitimate criticism of Israel from anti-semitism is on the critic ... gosh, that's convoluded), all results in my coming off as kind of schizophrenic on this issue.

but, i think that's also due to the fact that it's *this* particular issue, and the fact that *this* particular issue gets, in my opinion, way, way more press coverage than it deserves. it's just an impossible situation.

did we all notice that 40 people were killed in a suicide bombing in Iraq over the weekend?

Dozens killed in Iraqi pilgrimage suicide bombing - CNN.com
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Old 01-07-2009, 01:47 PM   #207
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reactive anti-americanism in Europe a few years ago -- i have video of arab kids wearing NY Yankee hats in Glasgow burning an American flag and stamping it out with their Nikes
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did we all notice that 40 people were killed in a suicide bombing in Iraq over the weekend?
Both are a result of US foreign policy and neither are impossible. Complicated, but not impossible.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:38 PM   #208
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i think i've mentioned several times that i think it is the Palestinians who are suffering the most, no question. but i think Hamas makes them suffer. i think Hamas is a murderous theocratic mafioso organization that uncovers bodies in the morgue so they can parade them through the streets. i think Hamas wants more dead Palestinians so they can wail about "no justice, no peace."
You could have made a similar argument that the IRA were murderous thugs several decades ago and that they were the cause of a lot of Irish suffering, but nevertheless, the British didn't go and bomb the fuck out of Belfast in order to ensure their own safety (and let's not forget, English citizens did die in numerous bombings in London).

And as for the journalists - don't buy that argument at all. They aren't asking to be embedded with Israeli soldiers; they are asking for basic access to the region which has been completely blockaded for weeks.
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Old 01-07-2009, 03:44 PM   #209
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Published on Wednesday, January 7, 2009 by TruthDig.com
Israeli Voices for Peace

by Amy Goodman

Israel’s assault on Gaza, by air, sea and now land, has killed (at the time of this writing) more than 600 Palestinians, with more than 2,700 injured. Ten Israelis have been killed, three of them Israeli soldiers killed by friendly fire. Beyond the deaths and injuries, the people of Gaza are suffering a dire humanitarian crisis that is dismissed by the Israeli government. There is, however, Israeli opposition to the military assault.

Israeli professor Neve Gordon is chair of the department of politics and government at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in southern Israel, the region most impacted by the Hamas rockets.

Speaking over the phone from Beersheba, Gordon said: “We just had a rocket about an hour ago not far from our house. My two children have been sleeping in a bomb shelter for the past week. And yet, I think what Israel is doing is outrageous. ... The problem is that most Israelis say Israel left the Gaza Strip three years ago and Hamas is still shooting rockets at us. They forget the details. The detail is that Israel maintains sovereignty. The detail is that the Palestinians live in a cage. The detail is that they don’t get basic foodstuff, that they don’t get electricity, that they don’t get water. And when you forget those kinds of details, all you say is, ‘Why are they still shooting at us?’ That’s what the media here has been pumping them with, then you think this war is rational. If you look at what’s been going on in the Gaza Strip in the past three years and you see what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians, you would think that the Palestinian resistance is rational. And that’s what’s missing in the mainstream media here.”

Gordon attended a large peace march last weekend in Tel Aviv with more than 10,000 other Israelis. Longtime Israeli peace activist Uri Avnery was there. He called the invasion “a criminal war, because, on top of everything else it is openly and shamelessly part of Ehud Barak’s and Tzipi Livni’s election campaign. I accuse Ehud Barak of exploiting the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] soldiers in order to get more Knesset seats. I accuse Tzipi Livni of advocating mutual slaughter in order to become prime minister.” Israel’s elections will be in February.

The assault strengthens right-wing Likud Party leader and former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, a foremost hawk and leading candidate for prime minister. While Netanyahu fully supports the attack on Gaza, his nephew, Jonathan Ben-Artzi, is an Israeli conscientious objector who was court-martialed and imprisoned for a year and a half. He spoke to me from Providence, R.I., where he is a student at Brown University.

“I’m speaking ... not as anyone’s nephew but ... as an Israeli, trying to speak out to Americans to tell them you don’t have to support Israel blindly. Not everything that Israel does is holy ... sometimes you have to speak firmly to Israel and tell us, tell our government, stop doing this.”

Gideon Levy is a Jewish journalist with the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. He told me: “I think that Israel had this legitimacy to protect its citizens in the southern part of Israel ... but this doing something does not mean this brutal and violent operation. ... I believe we could have got to a new truce without this bloodshed. Immediately to send dozens of jets to bomb a total helpless civilian society with hundreds of bombs—just today, they were burying five sisters. I mean, this is unheard of. This cannot go on like this.”

But it is. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency, UNRWA, in Gaza opened up schools to provide shelter, since Gazans, trapped in this narrow strip of land, have no place to flee. Christopher Gunness of UNRWA told me that the agency provided the coordinates of the schools to the Israeli military. Nevertheless, at least two schools have been hit by Israeli strikes in the past 24 hours. Three people were killed at the Asma elementary school. More than 30 are reported dead and more than 55 injured at the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp in Gaza.
While Israeli planes drop pamphlets urging Palestinians to leave, the 1.5 million residents of the Gaza Strip, perhaps the most densely populated place on Earth, have no place to run, no place to hide. Calls for an immediate cease-fire are ignored by Israel and blocked by the U.S. government. It is not clear what the Obama administration will do—but the people of Gaza can’t wait until the inauguration. There must be a cease-fire now. And that’s just the beginning.
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:22 PM   #210
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You could have made a similar argument that the IRA were murderous thugs several decades ago and that they were the cause of a lot of Irish suffering, but nevertheless, the British didn't go and bomb the fuck out of Belfast in order to ensure their own safety (and let's not forget, English citizens did die in numerous bombings in London).


was the stated goal of the IRA the total annihilation of the United Kingdom?

again, i don't think that what Israel is doing right now is good, i am not applauding IDF actions, either strategically or morally or by whatever standard. but i don't think you've provided a good analogy above.
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