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Old 01-07-2009, 09:06 AM   #181
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You're right. Our conflict with our Palestinian neighbors started before this campaign.....like 60 years(!!) or so ago. We have never had a moment's peace since the Jewish people returned to its ancient homeland and established the state in 1948. The very next day we were invaded by all of the neigboring Arab states who, even then, refused to accept our existance - and this was BEFORE Israel had any land to give back. They just didn't want us here and tried time and again to erase us from existance. The conflict didn't start in 1967 and it certainly won't end with this campaign.

Here's a brief history:

The Palestinian problem could have been solved 60 years ago if the Arabs living in Palestine had accepted the UN partition plan and put down their arms against us. The Palestinian state would have been created 60 years ago alongside Israel and the Palestinian people could have been ruling themselves and providing for themselves.

There were so many missed opportunities to solve the middle-east crisis - just to name a few:

1. After the six-day war in June 1967 when Israel captured the west bank, the Golan Heights and the Sinai Penninsula. These terrirotories were captured in a defensive war which we won by the grace of G-d. These territories were never officially annexed by Israel and we've always said that we're waiting to negotiate their return in exchange for peace - which of course was out of the question for the Arab countries, until Egypt took the bold step of making peace with us in 1979 - and as a result we gave back the Sinai Penninsula.

2. Another missed opportunity (in a chain of missed opportunities) came in 1993 when Israel recognized the PLO and the Oslo agreements were signed, granting the Palestinians autonomy leading up to an eventual Palestinian state which was supposed to be established by 1998. While the Fatah party laid down their arms, Hamas raised the mantle of radical Islam and waged a murderous campaign of suicide bombers against our population.

3. In 2000, Israel reached an unprecedented decision to sign an agreement which would effectively return 97% of the west bank to the Palestinians, including dismantling the settlements. Yassar Arafat turned us down cold and missed a true once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

4. In August 2005, after realizing that we had absolutely no one to talk to on the Palestinian side after Hamas took power in Gaza, Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip, dismantling settlements and relinquishing the land to the Palestinians. Israel left all the infrastructure intact and the Palestinian government could have used the land to resettle the poor people of Gaza City and to take them out of the squalor of the refugee camps…but no….they preferred to use perfectly good land to place rocket launchers and fire them into the nearby city of Sderot – it was much more important for the terrorist government to fight us instead of taking care of the needs of their own people.

5. Iran is pledging hundreds of millions of dollars to the Palestinians. Do you think it’s for food and medicine? Think again. The Hamas government will use this money to arm themselves with more sophisticated weapons and long-range missiles that will put us AND them in grave danger.

I could go on and on but I think you get the point. Time after time after time Israel has tried to reach agreements with the Palestinian governments, to no avail.


You're also right about Israel being founded on violence and bloodshed - as was every other country in the world (including the United States). Independence isn't achieved by folk dancing and cotton candy - it is won by the blood of the people and the courage of knowing that our cause is just.

As for bombing hotels......I would suggest that you read this account of the bombing of the King David hotel in Jerusalem by the Jewish resistance and then tell me that it's the same thing as strapping bombs on people to blow themselves up in restaurants and stores and busses.

The Bombing of the King David Hotel

As for civillian massacres, I assume you're referring to Dir Yassin - here's something else for you to read and see:

Israel Matzav: The truth about Dir Yassin


I suppose the United States won it's independence by having tea and crumpets with the British, right?

EVERY country is founded in violence and struggle - the only difference being that Israel is STILL locked in a daily struggle for survival and we are still defending ourselves against our enemies.


"Independence isn't achieved by folk dancing and cotton candy - it is won by the blood of the people and the courage of knowing that our cause is just." So I take it the palestinian's cause isn't just because...

So it's ok for you take land via terrorism, but not ok for Palestinians who are evil thugs? Just trying to work out the logic.

And the land wasn't yours, there were people living on it, your people had bothered with it for centuries, you murdered your way into then used the guilt of the western powers to keep it.

The six day war wasn't defensive, you attacked first in response to military build up by Egypt and a blockade of the Straits of Tiran. Of course when you blockade something it's in the name of peace.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:07 AM   #182
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the last page or so had been illuminating -- both for historical content (and how much that content is contested) and also for the fact that the arguments, for lack of a better word, always seem to fly past one another.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:08 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by popshopper View Post
"Independence isn't achieved by folk dancing and cotton candy - it is won by the blood of the people and the courage of knowing that our cause is just." So I take it the palestinian's cause isn't just because...

So it's ok for you take land via terrorism, but not ok for Palestinians who are evil thugs? Just trying to work out the logic.

And the land wasn't yours, there were people living on it, your people had bothered with it for centuries, you murdered your way into then used the guilt of the western powers to keep it.

The six day war wasn't defensive, you attacked first in response to military build up by Egypt and a blockade of the Straits of Tiran. Of course when you blockade something it's in the name of peace.

who actually created Israel in the first place? you make it sound like there was some Jewish version of the Normandy invasion.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:09 AM   #184
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You've got the 5th biggest standing army in the world, complete air control, funded with US's taxpayers money and all the latest technology against an enemy who doesn't even have 1 tank. Hamas are of little threat.

You don't let Journalists in because it makes killing civilians easier.
Al Qaida doesn't have any tanks either - all they had was 19 people who managed to murder 3,000 innocent American civillians! What does the size of an army have to do with a threat? Hamas doesn't need tanks or airplanes to fight us - all they need are disillusioned and easily brainwashed young people who are willing to strap bombs on themselves and blow themselves up in order to kill as many Israelis as possible.

And you are SO wrong about making it "easier to kill civillians". We are appalled by the high civillian death toll and it breaks my heart to see the pictures of the dead children - but when Hamas uses civillians as human shields that is the result.

What you said doesn't make sense and goes against everything we believe in. If we were really so "gung ho" and eager to kill civillians, don't you think we would have wiped Gaza off the map a long time ago without giving a shit about what anybody says?
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:14 AM   #185
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but when Hamas uses civillians as human shields that is the result.


they also make sure to parade them in front of the cameras. Hamas prevents the burial, or even preparation of the bodies for burial, until the bodies are used as props.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:23 AM   #186
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they also make sure to parade them in front of the cameras. Hamas prevents the burial, or even preparation of the bodies for burial, until the bodies are used as props.
Yes, yes they do. Hamas' tactics are despicable. What's your point?
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:24 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post

And you are SO wrong about making it "easier to kill civillians". We are appalled by the high civillian death toll and it breaks my heart to see the pictures of the dead children - but when Hamas uses civillians as human shields that is the result.

What you said doesn't make sense and goes against everything we believe in. If we were really so "gung ho" and eager to kill civillians, don't you think we would have wiped Gaza off the map a long time ago without giving a shit about what anybody says?
Well it doesn't seem to stop you? Does it.The IDF have killed thousands more than the Hamas has managed. As the Geneva conventions states the use of human shields don't remove the requirement on the part of the attackers to avoid loss of human life. Even if weapons are stored in a school or hospital they are still civilian buildings and should not be attacked.

Indiscriminate attacks are those which are not directed at a specific military objective or those which use a method of attack that cannot be directed at or limited to a specific military objective. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

This includes area bombardment, where a number of clearly separated military objectives are treated as a single military objective, and where there is a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5a)

This also includes attacks where the expected incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects is excessive to the military advantage anticipated. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5b)

Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

Combatants must distinguish between civilian and military objects and attack only military targets. (Protocol I, Art. 48)


If there is any doubt as to whether a place of worship, house, school or other civilian object is used for military purposes, then it will be presumed not to be a legitimate military target. (Protocol I, Art. 52, Sec. 3)

If it becomes apparent that an objective in an attack is not a military one, or if that attack could cause incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects, then the attack must be called off. (Protocol I, Art. 57)


And in many occasions there's not been a use of human shields like yesterday, yet the Civilians die in their hundreds.

I don't think the IDF want to kill civilians, but they don't mind if they do and they don't go out of their way to avoid it. They rely on ineffective bombing raids which indiscriminately kill because its easier for them and they don't want to risk troops on the ground. But the results are what matter and as professional armies go there's none better at killing civilians than the IDF.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:45 AM   #188
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who actually created Israel in the first place? you make it sound like there was some Jewish version of the Normandy invasion.
Of course there wasn't but In 1922 11% of Palestine was Jewish, in 1942 that number was 33%. Just how did 33% get 70% of the land?
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:54 AM   #189
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"Independence isn't achieved by folk dancing and cotton candy - it is won by the blood of the people and the courage of knowing that our cause is just." So I take it the palestinian's cause isn't just because...

So it's ok for you take land via terrorism, but not ok for Palestinians who are evil thugs? Just trying to work out the logic.

And the land wasn't yours, there were people living on it, your people had bothered with it for centuries, you murdered your way into then used the guilt of the western powers to keep it.

The six day war wasn't defensive, you attacked first in response to military build up by Egypt and a blockade of the Straits of Tiran. Of course when you blockade something it's in the name of peace.
I never said that the Palestinian cause wasn't just - quite the opposite. I've outlined all the efforts that Israel has made over the years in order for the Palestinians to achieve their goal of statehood. Right from the beginning we wanted to have a Palestinian state next to us - it was THEM who have refused time and again.

Personally, I believe that the ordinary Palestinian man or woman on the street yearns for peace as much as we do. Too bad it's the leaders who instigate and inflame the situation.

+++

As for the land - do I really need to bring up the United States and the indians? Or Australia and the Aborigines??
The Americans had no claim whatsoever on the land when the settlers first arrived - the Indians were there first. The British had no claim on Australia when they chose it as a dumping ground for their convicts - the Aborigines were there first. Moreover, the white men in Australia didn't even consider the Aborigines as human beings until 1967 when they first got the right to vote and were no longer considered the "flora and fauna" of Australia - can you imagine?

With Israel it is quite different - this has always been our ancient homeland from biblical times when the land was promised by G-d to Abraham and his sons. The land was conquered time and again by various civilizations (some less civil than others...lol) but there was ALWAYS a Jewish presence in the land of Israel and a yearning in our hearts to return to the land of our forefathers untill, finally, in 1948 the Jews reclaimed this land as our own.

As for the six day war - here is some more reading material for you:

The Six-Day War
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:04 AM   #190
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Well it doesn't seem to stop you? Does it.The IDF have killed thousands more than the Hamas has managed. As the Geneva conventions states the use of human shields don't remove the requirement on the part of the attackers to avoid loss of human life. Even if weapons are stored in a school or hospital they are still civilian buildings and should not be attacked.

Indiscriminate attacks are those which are not directed at a specific military objective or those which use a method of attack that cannot be directed at or limited to a specific military objective. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

This includes area bombardment, where a number of clearly separated military objectives are treated as a single military objective, and where there is a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5a)

This also includes attacks where the expected incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects is excessive to the military advantage anticipated. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5b)

Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

Combatants must distinguish between civilian and military objects and attack only military targets. (Protocol I, Art. 48)


If there is any doubt as to whether a place of worship, house, school or other civilian object is used for military purposes, then it will be presumed not to be a legitimate military target. (Protocol I, Art. 52, Sec. 3)

If it becomes apparent that an objective in an attack is not a military one, or if that attack could cause incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects, then the attack must be called off. (Protocol I, Art. 57)

And in many occasions there's not been a use of human shields like yesterday, yet the Civilians die in their hundreds.

I don't think the IDF want to kill civilians, but they don't mind if they do and they don't go out of their way to avoid it. They rely on ineffective bombing raids which indiscriminately kill because its easier for them and they don't want to risk troops on the ground. But the results are what matter and as professional armies go there's none better at killing civilians than the IDF.
The articles of the Geneva convention do not apply in this case because it is not one country fighting another country - it is one country fighting against a terrorist organization and to accord it any consideration under international law would be to legitimize a band of thugs and murderers.

Which is why I believe that the UN security council should be on OUR side instead of the side of the terrorists who are attacking a member state.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:11 AM   #191
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The articles of the Geneva convention do not apply in this case because it is not one country fighting another country - it is one country fighting against a terrorist organization and to accord it any consideration under international law would be to legitimize a band of thugs and murderers.

Which is why I believe that the UN security council should be on OUR side instead of the side of the terrorists who are attacking a member state.
It matters to the civilians who are by and large the ones dying. It really doesn't matter whether you are attacking an army, a terrorist organisation or a cow. There are rights civilians should have which the IDF do not afford them, and no it doesn't matter what Hamas do, they're terrorists which the IDF claim not to be, you want to be treated like a civilised nation then act like one. Do don't have to afford Hamas any rights to avoid killing civilians. The problem as it is is the IDF think so little of a palestinian civilians life they would bomb an entire block to take out one mortar even the US doesn't do that in Iraq they go in with troops. You've got the 5th biggest army in the world you could try actually sending them in to take out the terrorists.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:25 AM   #192
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It matters to the civilians who are by and large the ones dying. It really doesn't matter whether you are attacking an army, a terrorist organisation or a cow. There are rights civilians should have which the IDF do not afford them, and no it doesn't matter what Hamas do, they're terrorists which the IDF claim not to be, you want to be treated like a civilised nation then act like one. Do don't have to afford Hamas any rights to avoid killing civilians. The problem as it is is the IDF think so little of a palestinian civilians life they would bomb an entire block to take out one mortar even the US doesn't do that in Iraq they go in with troops. You've got the 5th biggest army in the world you could try actually sending them in to take out the terrorists.
As we speak, our army is engaging the enemy on the ground and thousands more reservists are on the way.

It's a lot easier to avoid civillian casualties in ground combat than from the air - which is why Israel has limited its air strikes once the ground offensive began.
Mainly because we DO care about civillian life.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:29 AM   #193
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I never said that the Palestinian cause wasn't just - quite the opposite. I've outlined all the efforts that Israel has made over the years in order for the Palestinians to achieve their goal of statehood. Right from the beginning we wanted to have a Palestinian state next to us - it was THEM who have refused time and again.
Because?

Perhaps what Israel perceives as generosity is not what the Palestinians (and other Arabs) define as autonomy.

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As for the land - do I really need to bring up the United States and the indians? Or Australia and the Aborigines??
The Americans had no claim whatsoever on the land when the settlers first arrived - the Indians were there first. The British had no claim on Australia when they chose it as a dumping ground for their convicts - the Aborigines were there first. Moreover, the white men in Australia didn't even consider the Aborigines as human beings until 1967 when they first got the right to vote and were no longer considered the "flora and fauna" of Australia - can you imagine?

With Israel it is quite different - this has always been our ancient homeland from biblical times when the land was promised by G-d to Abraham and his sons. The land was conquered time and again by various civilizations (some less civil than others...lol) but there was ALWAYS a Jewish presence in the land of Israel and a yearning in our hearts to return to the land of our forefathers untill, finally, in 1948 the Jews reclaimed this land as our own.
So this basically is saying what Israel is doing is its God-given right and we shouldn't critisize or interfere because of the similar actions of our forefathers for less than divine motivation?

Seriously?
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:37 AM   #194
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Because?

Perhaps what Israel perceives as generosity is not what the Palestinians (and other Arabs) define as autonomy.



So this basically is saying what Israel is doing is its God-given right and we shouldn't critisize or interfere because of the similar actions of our forefathers for less than divine motivation?

Seriously?
We've never discussed "autonomy" for the Palestinians - that was at the beginning. We're now discussing full statehood in territories returned through good faith negotiations and not through violence.

No, I AM saying that there is a double standard where Israel is concerned. We're required to give back our own land whereas other countries aren't asked to give back land that wasn't theirs to begin with.

I'm not trying to be argumentative - just stating the facts.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:47 AM   #195
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We've never discussed "autonomy" for the Palestinians - that was at the beginning. We're now discussing full statehood in territories returned through good faith negotiations and not through violence.
What is "full statehood" in the absence of autonomy?

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No, I AM saying that there is a double standard where Israel is concerned. We're required to give back our own land whereas other countries aren't asked to give back land that wasn't theirs to begin with.

I'm not trying to be argumentative - just stating the facts.
If there was the scale of violence and disregard for human rights in the US, Britain or Australia that we see in your disputed territories then perhaps we could compare. But since there isn't, it makes for a weak argument.
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