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Old 03-10-2015, 01:04 AM   #16
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Not a very libertarian stance is this?

Beal nailed this, the only way this truly gets defeated is from within the Muslim world, PERIOD
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Old 03-10-2015, 01:24 AM   #17
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Not a very libertarian stance is this?



Beal nailed this, the only way this truly gets defeated is from within the Muslim world, PERIOD

Just because I'm libertarian doesn't mean that I don't support a strong military.
I think going into Iraq was a total and pointless mistake. Saddam was a horrible man, but we needed to stay out of that mess. I think Bush Sr. was definitely pulling strings in that mess; the whole trying to connect it to 9/11, etc. That was awful.
Afghanistan was poorly executed, but the original intentions were good.
I think we need to approach ISIS much differently than we did Al Qaeda. Non stop bombing and nuking is clearly a horrible idea, but serious military intervention at some capacity is necessary. I'm not a military expert and I'm not gonna act like I am either, but using strategic bombing and raids will probably be more effective.
I hate ISIS passionately and seeing the egregious attacks on people of all ways of life is beyond sickening. Clearly the public targeting of Christians is to rile up the Americans, but something has to be done immediately.
I'm not doubting that there are good Muslim people in this world, but it seems like the radicals have such a stranglehold I don't see them fixing this problem. It would certainly be much easier for the long term, but I just don't see it happening.

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Old 03-10-2015, 01:52 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by bobsaget77 View Post
Just because I'm libertarian doesn't mean that I don't support a strong military.
I think going into Iraq was a total and pointless mistake. Saddam was a horrible man, but we needed to stay out of that mess. I think Bush Sr. was definitely pulling strings in that mess; the whole trying to connect it to 9/11, etc. That was awful.
Afghanistan was poorly executed, but the original intentions were good.
I think we need to approach ISIS much differently than we did Al Qaeda. Non stop bombing and nuking is clearly a horrible idea, but serious military intervention at some capacity is necessary. I'm not a military expert and I'm not gonna act like I am either, but using strategic bombing and raids will probably be more effective.
I hate ISIS passionately and seeing the egregious attacks on people of all ways of life is beyond sickening. Clearly the public targeting of Christians is to rile up the Americans, but something has to be done immediately.
I'm not doubting that there are good Muslim people in this world, but it seems like the radicals have such a stranglehold I don't see them fixing this problem. It would certainly be much easier for the long term, but I just don't see it happening.

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My point with the libertarian comment, is that the party has an issue with grayness, most fundamental libertarians would not agree with your stance. And this is what I was trying to communicate with you earlier.

As far as ISIS, yes it's beyond sickening, and it's easy to react with emotion and call for more killing, but that is not the answer here. ISIS is a result of how we approached Al Qaeda, even Fox News of all sources is admitting that, so going in there as Mule suggests would be bigger recruiting tool and just kicking the can down the sidewalk. Even Mule admits we would have to go back in a decade, holy shit that is not how you deal with foreign policy issues.
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Old 03-10-2015, 07:21 PM   #19
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I have Middle East fatigue.

Don't think it's an uncommon feeling.
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Old 03-10-2015, 11:27 PM   #20
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To clear some things up, my post was very blunt, and came from an angry emotional place. I do actually have a bit more nuanced opinion, and agree with a lot of you guys. Change definitely needs to come from the Muslim world. I just don't see that happening anytime soon. Any intervention on the US/NATO/EU's part must be part of a broader coalition of other Middle Eastern states (looking at Jordan especially, props to King Abdullah).

Another point I'd like to make is that IS is way more of a conventional military force than Al-Qaeda ever was. I can't think of a time when foreign policy or social changes ever defeated a conventional force. While those changes do need to happen, ultimately IS will have to be dealt with militarily. From a homeland security perspective, they also pose way more of a threat to Americans at home than Al-Qaeda did post 9/11.

I'm also not okay with the targeting and killing of Americans abroad (and at home) going (relatively) unpunished.

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I have Middle East fatigue.

Don't think it's an uncommon feeling.
I do too, however contradictory that may sound to what I've said.

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And your solution is to commit more atrocities and crimes against humanity?

That's seriously fucked up. I'm not saying this in any kind of dismissive or condescending way. It's seriously, sociopathically, barbarically fucked up. I hope you didn't really mean exactly what you just said.
Not what I said. There would be absolutely no moral equivalency to military force against IS. When its warranted and justified, war =/= atrocities and crimes against humanity. I'm assuming you interpreted my bluntness as the ignorant "nuke em and let God sort em out" crap I hear rednecks spew. Not what I meant at all.

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ISIS is winning when the people that oppose them want to replicate their behavior.
Like I said, no moral equivalency. Plus I never said anything about beheading people with dull knives or dousing them in petrol and tossing a match on them.

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I am as outraged as you are about ISIS. But I don't think the "wipe them out, all of them" strategy is a strategy. What went wrong in Iraq was nothing to do with holding the military back, that's some Vietnam rationalization right there. It was ALWAYS a bad idea, it was NEVER going to work. Why? Because we cannot solve problems for people.
Restrictive ROE's, and generally piss poor strategy did play a role in Iraq, though I was referring more to Afghanistan. That is one of the biggest problems with the way that war went. That being said, I agree going into Iraq originally was a colossal mistake.

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I do appreciate your viewpoint and thank you for sharing it


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ISIS is a result of how we approached Al Qaeda
That's only a piece of the puzzle. Fighting Americans in Iraq certainly gave them some street credit, but the civil war in Syria is what caused their rise to power and popularity.

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The ideal (but obviously least likely) case is that the US provide the Kurds in Northern Syria with more arms and support, given they are comfortably the most progressive force in the region (hell, try the whole world) but as it stands they have a shitload of enemies themselves.
I agree with this. I'm a big supporter of Kurdistan, and hope they get their own state soon. If anything, I believe the Kurds deserve all the help and support we can give them. Though it seems that we're just going to let them down again.

On a personal note, joining the fight with the Kurds has been something that's weighed heavy on my mind the past few months, especially as I see more and more veterans doing so. If it wasn't for school and my significant other, I'd already be there. It's still something I've been thinking about though.
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Old 03-10-2015, 11:57 PM   #21
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From a homeland security perspective, they also pose way more of a threat to Americans at home than Al-Qaeda did post 9/11.

ISIS is not a threat to the U.S. homeland, their main objective is not attacking the U.S. Their main goal is to build a functioning state in Iraq and Syria and then expand. Al Qaeda wanted to attack the U.S., which is what made them dangerous to the homeland. ISIS does not want to expend the resources to attack the U.S., they instead devote their resources to building the caliphate in Iraq and Syria. Al Qaeda devoted its resources towards attacking the U.S., this is the main difference between ISIS and older terrorist groups. The main danger of ISIS to the West is the ideology inspiring lone wolves to attack.


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Old 03-11-2015, 04:25 AM   #22
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On a personal note, joining the fight with the Kurds has been something that's weighed heavy on my mind the past few months, especially as I see more and more veterans doing so. If it wasn't for school and my significant other, I'd already be there. It's still something I've been thinking about though.
From my understanding a lot of former American soldiers have joined the YPG/YPJ, but a high percentage end up deserting them because they paid no attention to the movement's politics (and how it conflicted with theirs). I got a pretty good laugh out of hearing about it, personally.
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Old 03-12-2015, 08:24 AM   #23
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Another point I'd like to make is that IS is way more of a conventional military force than Al-Qaeda ever was. I can't think of a time when foreign policy or social changes ever defeated a conventional force.
What are you talking about? "Foreign policy" ended almost every war in the last 500+ years, what do you think a peace treaty is? not to mention all the wars these things prevented from ever happening in the first place, which is kind of the preferable outcome isn't it?

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Not what I said. There would be absolutely no moral equivalency to military force against IS. When its warranted and justified, war =/= atrocities and crimes against humanity. I'm assuming you interpreted my bluntness as the ignorant "nuke em and let God sort em out" crap I hear rednecks spew. Not what I meant at all.
Well I concede I probably misread your post. I spent enough time in the military to know exactly what it means 90% of the time when soldiers bitch and moan about "restrictive ROEs". Usually it just means they want the ability to shoot anybody who looks at them sideways no questions asked. It's terrifying how many legitimate psychopaths and just borderline nutjobs there are in the army who would not only gleefully wipe out an entire town singlehandedly given the slightest reason, but actually try to provoke "the enemy" into giving them that reasoning.

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On a personal note, joining the fight with the Kurds has been something that's weighed heavy on my mind the past few months, especially as I see more and more veterans doing so. If it wasn't for school and my significant other, I'd already be there. It's still something I've been thinking about though.

I don't understand what the point of this would be at all. It would accomplish precisely nothing except probably cause you a whole lot of issues trying to come home. Honestly the idea of American civilians/vets going to "join the Kurds" sounds like simply chasing the combat high rather than altruism.
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Old 03-13-2015, 12:33 AM   #24
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We will probably have to win this in Proxy War fashion - funding supporting countries like Iraq, Turkey, and Jordan to win it. It must seem like a Muslim victory, even if the West pays the bill...

I don't think it's an accident that Jordan is all fired up now and ready kick arse...
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