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Old 05-06-2011, 09:59 AM   #121
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Well I find lots of men attractive-and even if I have some sort of fantasy about them that automatically makes it lust and sinful? I just don't think you can regiment and control thought like that. Or that you necessarily should. And honestly I don't think God expects that.
Sure God expects us to control our thoughts. Do you want every thought that enters your head to linger, or do you want to be able to dismiss some of them? Ever have a crazy thought like I had - the thought of "I should shoot a missle" at that car- that just popped into your head out of the blue? Do you want that thought to linger in your head or do you want to dismiss it?

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If I'm attracted physically or emotionally to a married man or I fantasize about them that is automatically sinful? No-it's acting on that that is sinful.
Attraction, you can't help. I know a woman who is like a sister to me. She is one of my best friends. She got married to a man who is now one of my best friends as well. I honestly consider her the most beautiful person I have ever seen. However, the fact that she is physically attractive to me doesn't mean I'm going to have sexual thoughts, lust or fantasy about her.

According to the Bible, to lust after a married person is a sin, just as the actual act is. You may not believe the Bible, but i do, so of course, that's the way I'm going to believe.

Lust and fantasy are born from desire, right? A person wouldn't fantasize about sex with someone he didn't desire to have sex with, right?

Well, with that in mind, consider the nature of that desire in the first place. And I'm not talking about a desirous thought that pops up out of nowhere. I am talking about a desire that has been dwelt upon, cultivated enough that it turns into fantasy. Do you think it's morally okay for someone to desire to have sex with someone who is already married to someone else? To desire to have sex with some who has vowed to stay true to another person? To desire to have sex with someone when he knows that if it were found out, it would likely mean the end of the marriage?

And how does the person doing the fantasizing know that they'll never act upon it? How can that person be sure? Fantasizing about it is setting oneself up for committing the actual sin, if God forbid, the opportunity should ever present itself. If a person has trouble just controlling thoughts, how much more trouble would he/she have controlling his/her libido if the opportunity ever presented itself?

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I can try with all my might to control that and to not be attracted at all, but I will fail and I have. But I do not act upon it.
Like I said, attraction is something you can't help. But you can certainly avoid dwelling on any lustful thoughts that pop into your mind and thus you also avoid fantasizing.

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It's all in how you treat that in your own mind and heart that makes all the difference. Because that will also dictate how you treat the other people involved.
So, if a man allows himself to fantasize about a married woman, how is you going to treat her? How is he going to treat her husband? Don't you think it will affect the way he treats them?

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Lust is selfishness- thinking you can do whatever you want, have whatever you want, treat others however you want in order to satisfy whatever it is that you want to satisfy.
For one to allow himself to fantasize about a married woman, someone who is vowed to be true to someone else, that is selfishness. How would that married woman feel if she knew someone was fantasizing about having sex with her? How would her husband feel?
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:16 AM   #122
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i know this wasn't directed at me, but i wanted to respond ...


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Do you think it's morally okay for someone to desire to have sex with someone who is already married to someone else? To desire to have sex with some who has vowed to stay true to another person? To desire to have sex with someone when he knows that if it were found out, it would likely mean the end of the marriage?

if it goes unacted upon, why not?


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And how does the person doing the fantasizing know that they'll never act upon it? How can that person be sure? Fantasizing about it is setting oneself up for committing the actual sin, if God forbid, the opportunity should ever present itself. If a person has trouble just controlling thoughts, how much more trouble would he/she have controlling his/her libido if the opportunity ever presented itself?

because we are in control of our actions? we know that there's a line between fantasy and reality. i guess i don't fear my thoughts and i don't feel the need to fight them and run away from them. i'd rather understand them and how they operate and what they are saying about how i might be wired, and by having intellectualized what i'm thinking and feeling, i can then make a better decision if/when said scenario might present itself.

maybe ask yourself *why* you want to shoot a missile at a car that cuts you off. i feel that way. i don't drive much, but when i do drive, i've noticed that i've become much more irritable behind the wheel, and much more likely to fly off the handle if/when i see someone driving in an unsafe manner. but i know exactly *why* i've become this way, and it's too much to get into here, but because i might explore that thought and examine it and wonder where it came from, i eventually have better control the next time around.


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So, if a man allows himself to fantasize about a married woman, how is you going to treat her? How is he going to treat her husband? Don't you think it will affect the way he treats them?

i don't think i'm quite as ruled by lust as the assumption is here. i have friends who are totally unavailable, and i've had sexual thoughts about them, but i know they're unavailable, so i don't act on them, and i respect their relationship, so i don't do anything that would ever upset their relationship, nor my own relationship. i just acknowledge that, yes, said guy is very attractive and possibly think sexual acts and my mind might wander, but i'm always in control of it. i think because i am so comfortable with my sexual thoughts that's why i have so much control over them.


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How would that married woman feel if she knew someone was fantasizing about having sex with her? How would her husband feel?

do you think it's possible for them both to feel simply flattered? jealousy and possession aren't a part of all relationships.
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:31 AM   #123
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But would you agree one of the reasons sex was designed by God would be to express love?
Yes, I would agree with that. The Bible says that God designed sex for procreation and be pleasurable in the context of the marriage relationship.

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What if Jesus loved Mary in a romantic way? What if he had a desire to marry her? Could he not fantasize about that future?
Although you haven't actually come out and stated it you've somewhat admitted that fantasy and lust are in fact different, so why couldn't Jesus fantasize?
.

The Bible says that Christ was tempted in very way that is common to man. We know that. So, the devil did tempt Jesus to have lust. He probably did what he does to all of us; throw random sexual thoughts at Jesus. But we know that Jesus did not dwell on those thoughts. We know that because Christ said that to lust in your heart is the same as sinning. So, if Jesus was indeed sinless, he never let those sexual temptations form into lust. And if he weren't sinless, this issue doesn't matter because he can't ave us from our sins, and therefore he wasn't the Son of God at all, but a liar who blasphemed God. He wasn't a liar.

So how did Jesus resist the temptation to lust? The same way he resisted the temptations Satan threw at him in the desert. He meditated on the word of God and threw scripture back in the Devil's face.

In direct answer to your question, I believe that if Jesus were romantically interested in Mary, it probably would not have been wrong for him to have non-sexual fantasy about a future with her.

But let's go to the issue - did he love her romantically? Some people say he must have because she was frequently with him. That reasoning really doesn't amount to anything. Two of my four best friends are women. I do not have an iota of romantic interest in either, even though I enjoy their company. In fact, I frequently spend time with one of them, and never have any romantic thoughts or temptations for her.

The Bible doesn't specifically state whether he loved her romantically or not. But I believe that there are strong indications that he did not.

First, the Bible says that Christ was involved in creation along with the Father. Doesn't it seem strange that Jesus would fall romantically in love with his creation?

Secondly, at the cross, he specifically told John to care for his mother. If he loved Mary Mag romantically, doesn't it make sense that he would ask John to take care of her, as well?

Thirdly, the Bible specifically states that Jesus came to earth to die for our sins, to seek and to save, and to destroy the works of the Devil. Knowing that intense mission, would he desire to get married and thus have his attention be divided? For a marriage to be successful, the spouse must be the most important person in one's life. It involves a great deal of effort, time and devotion. Would Jesus desire to take that on, this diverting a great deal of his attention away from his stated mission on earth?

Also, he knew the crucifixion was going to happen. Knowing that he would be executed at a young age, would he want to get married for such a short time only to leave behind a grieving wife? Would Jesus consider his own temporary pleasure more important than the possibility of her marrying a man for decades?

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Although you haven't actually come out and stated it you've somewhat admitted that fantasy and lust are in fact different, so why couldn't Jesus fantasize?
.

For the record, I didn't actually admit that fantasy and lust are always different. I said that fantasy doesn't have to be about sex. But lust and sexual fantasy do go hand-in-hand. You can't have sexual fantasy without sexually lusting first. I realize that different definitions for lust have been given during this thread, but I am specifically referring to the definition of the Greek word for "lust" that was actually used in the Bible.
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:41 AM   #124
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I don't like the idea that God created us imperfect and because of that we should be guilty about our imperfections.
I don't like the idea that God created us imperfect, either.

But that's not the Bible's idea. Our imperfection comes from our own sin. God doesn't force us to sin.

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If I consciously do something wrong, I'll feel guilty about it, and rightly so.
I don't think God wants you to live with guilty feelings. He wants you to accept his forgiveness as expressed through the death of Jesus.

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But having some thoughts about someone I find attractive, just because I can't help it? That seems awfully unfair and unrealistic of God to say I'm doing something wrong.
I agree completely. God doesn't hold you accountable for things you can't control or can't help. You can't control the lustful thoughts that pop into your head. Those are temptations, not your own sin.

But people can control whether they allow thoughts to linger and turn into lust.
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:54 AM   #125
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I hope you're not saying that I couldn't "believe the Bible" because of what I said. I believe it but I don't take it page by page and take it that literally for how I live my life. I think I know in my heart what God expects of me and what I expect of myself, and that's what guides how I live my life. I'm human, I fail. But I do my best to learn from those failures and to use the brain and soul that God gave me I am a Christian and a believer, that I know for sure.

I can have thoughts and fantasies about several members of my favorite baseball team, and I do Some are married, some aren't. Obviously they never know that and it stays in my own head. How I live my life personally is a 360 from that, and guided by my own moral code. And I never go around thinking anyone is even interested or even looking at all anyway-so it's just my own personal thing and I think it's quite harmless. Same would be for guys that I know, it's not as if I would ever share that with someone if they're married. I control the thoughts by not acting upon them and by not being consumed by them or deluded by them.

I would treat the person exactly the same-and especially a married person. Because I'd be so nervous about the whole thing that I'd be extra respectful. Thoughts are not action.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:01 AM   #126
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Thoughts are not action.
This sums it all up for me. I believe that the sin is acting upon the thoughts, not the thoughts themselves!

Great thread!
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:02 AM   #127
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First, let me say that I enjoy our conversations these days, Irvine. I respect you, and it seems you respect me, even though we don't always agree.

Frankly, there are some people (not here) with whom I don't agree that I simply do not respect, because of the way they present their arguments.

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i know this wasn't directed at me, but i wanted to respond ...

if it goes unacted upon, why not?
Because, to desire sex with a married person is to desire something that you own no right to have, and that would be wrong and destructive if you did have.

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because we are in control of our actions? we know that there's a line between fantasy and reality. i guess i don't fear my thoughts and i don't feel the need to fight them and run away from them. i'd rather understand them and how they operate and what they are saying about how i might be wired, and by having intellectualized what i'm thinking and feeling, i can then make a better decision if/when said scenario might present itself.
Consider this. What would happen if the person you lusted after kissed you and/or caressed you? Would it be difficult or easy for you to walk away? Can you say with any degree of certainty that your will power would be enough to resist the person? I cant say that about me.

I'll use myself as a perfect example. When I was in my early 20s, I had a great desire to remain celibate until I was married. It was very important for me to remain pure, not from obligation, but because I thought it was important. However, I let myself get in a situation in which an attractive girl was kissing all over me. One thing led to another, and it was very difficult for me to resist. I succumbed to the temptation. I don't feel guilty about that anymore; God forgives me and i know it. However, that instance serves as a warning to me; don't think that willpower alone can save the day. People have to take measures to prevent these things form happening. And one excellent way to help prevent adultery form happening is to not fantasize about a married person.

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maybe ask yourself *why* you want to shoot a missile at a car that cuts you off.
I don't want to shoot a missile at a car that cuts me off. It was an example of crazy thoughts that pop up in someone's head, just out of the blue. I can dismiss it easily, because I know it's not my desire.

Now, if I knew that a child predator or a rapist were in the car, I should hope I don't have a missile-armed vehicle, because I would shoot it at the car.


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i don't think i'm quite as ruled by lust as the assumption is here.
I don't know you, but I don't assume you're ruled by lust. But I do know that of the incredible pressure to succumb to temptations when the temptation seems overbearing.


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do you think it's possible for them both to feel simply flattered? jealousy and possession aren't a part of all relationships.
Honestly, in most cases, I do not think the wife or the husband would be flattered.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:06 AM   #128
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I hope you're not saying that I couldn't "believe the Bible" because of what I said.
I don't think that about you, I assure you. But I can see how you might think I was saying that, so I apologize. I should have written "I don't know if you believe the Bible, but I do." I was just trying to frame my belief in the context of what the Bible says.

Deeply sorry for my mis-wording. You are someone I respect,and I would never want to imply any such thing.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:18 AM   #129
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You are someone I respect,and I would never want to imply any such thing.
Well thanks, I appreciate that. For you it's about "believing" the Bible and I can respect that. But for me I guess I can say that terminology seems kind of dubious to me. In other words, it's not as if the fact that I have fantasies and thoughts makes me a sinful or bad person. It's all about my relationship with God and with myself and with things that just go much deeper than words on a page.

To get real and blunt about it..I'm not hanging out trying to meet and hook up with those baseball players. That would make me completely delusional-and a ho bag This is how my life in that aspect goes-the most action I ever got was from a team old timer (really old) who asked me to sit on his lap and told me I was heavier than I looked. It's all very, very sad. So a girl should be cut some slack, if she has some harmless fantasies about the other guys. Plus the way they're performing these days- well the "lust" stuff, sometimes that's all I got left. I love baseball first and foremost, but the side benefits can be enjoyable
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:30 AM   #130
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In other words, it's not as if the fact that I have fantasies and thoughts makes me a sinful or bad person. It's all about my relationship with God and with myself and with things that just go much deeper than words on a page.So a girl should be cut some slack
Of course, I don't know you personally, but from what I've known of you from this forum over the years, I'd say you are from a "bad person", whether I agree with you about the fantasizing stuff or not. From my exposure to you here, I'd say you are A-OK!
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:38 AM   #131
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I'm hard enough on myself-if I carried The Bible around with me (which I would have to do because I don't know it enough at all) and tried to live every day according to every edict in it and every standard, and judging others by the same..well I'd go completely insane. I know how I live and what I believe in. And I guess I'm "arrogant" enough to believe that that's enough.

I'm human so I fail so many times. It's how and what I learn from it that makes the difference.
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Old 05-06-2011, 03:06 PM   #132
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First, the Bible says that Christ was involved in creation along with the Father. Doesn't it seem strange that Jesus would fall romantically in love with his creation?
This isn't a very good reason. By this logic he could never be interested in anyone romantically or be tempted. Therefore he's not all man.

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Secondly, at the cross, he specifically told John to care for his mother. If he loved Mary Mag romantically, doesn't it make sense that he would ask John to take care of her, as well?
There's a lot personally we don't know of Jesus, there are no books written in his first person, nor from her perspective, so we just don't know. We don't know what he ever said to her in private, or felt in private.

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Thirdly, the Bible specifically states that Jesus came to earth to die for our sins, to seek and to save, and to destroy the works of the Devil. Knowing that intense mission, would he desire to get married and thus have his attention be divided? For a marriage to be successful, the spouse must be the most important person in one's life. It involves a great deal of effort, time and devotion. Would Jesus desire to take that on, this diverting a great deal of his attention away from his stated mission on earth?
Did Jesus not play as a kid, did Jesus not learn a trade, did he not make time to make friends? Why would he do all of this if he knew his mission?

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Also, he knew the crucifixion was going to happen. Knowing that he would be executed at a young age, would he want to get married for such a short time only to leave behind a grieving wife? Would Jesus consider his own temporary pleasure more important than the possibility of her marrying a man for decades?
The idea of wanting to marry and actually pursuing it are two differnt things. But to think Jesus never thought about it seems to go against the idea that he was really human.


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For the record, I didn't actually admit that fantasy and lust are always different. I said that fantasy doesn't have to be about sex. But lust and sexual fantasy do go hand-in-hand. You can't have sexual fantasy without sexually lusting first.
This definition makes no sense to me and I would say is absolutely impossible.

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I realize that different definitions for lust have been given during this thread, but I am specifically referring to the definition of the Greek word for "lust" that was actually used in the Bible.
The Greek scriputes do not have a single word that is uniquely translated as sexual lust, so I'm not sure where you are getting this definition.
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Old 05-06-2011, 03:50 PM   #133
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I would definitely think lust is well beyond fantasy.

Iron horse had a good definition on the previous page: Intense or unrestrained sexual craving. That's very different to a casual/harmless sexual fantasy. I can have a sexual fantasy without actively wanting it. I can fantasise about someone without tipping over to lusting after them. There's a difference. I don't think of lust/lusting as a sin, but I understand that under many circumstances, for different reasons, it's "rocks ahoy!"

Specifically, as someone in a long term relationship, I don't feel at all bad about a "Phwoar!" on the street. I don't feel at all bad about even extended fantasies. It's natural, I am sure she certainly does it too, and I don't feel at all bad about that either. But I think that if I were lusting after someone other than her, that suggests something entirely different.
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:06 PM   #134
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so how do you understand lust and pride?

and, on the whole, really good thread.


for my part, i'd view lust in degrees ... we can lust after something and be perfectly in control of that moment of intense, animal desire. for me, i could lust after the really awesome lamp we just saw, a soft serve ice cream on a hot day, or what might be lurking in that guy's 501's. but i'm able to control that lust by recognizing what it is -- something primal (food! sex! acquisition!) and evaluating the context in which it arose and then regulating my behavior. i might decide that i don't have $200 to drop on a lamp, that i need to drop 10 more lbs so no ice cream, and it really would be in appropriate to walk up to the dude in the jeans and hit on him (especially because i am virtually married). that seems to me to be lust with a lowercase "l" and a part of human nature, and the subjugation of which separates us from animals, and the better we are at delaying gratification, the more successful we are likely to be in life itself.

but then we might consider all-consuming Lust to be the sexual form of the "Greed is Good" speech from Wall Street. that the best sex is a lot, that the best partners are the hottest, that sex is a sport, and an individual's worth is measured by their sexual prowess and list of impressive partners. when sex becomes like money, when it becomes like a material object, when it can drive you to neglect other aspects of your life and the life of others -- what some might call (the very problematic term) "sex addition" -- then i think we can say that this is A Bad Thing.
yep, i would say, in the extreme, lust has the potential to be very destructive indeed...


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And how does the person doing the fantasizing know that they'll never act upon it? How can that person be sure? Fantasizing about it is setting oneself up for committing the actual sin, if God forbid, the opportunity should ever present itself. If a person has trouble just controlling thoughts, how much more trouble would he/she have controlling his/her libido if the opportunity ever presented itself?
controlling one's thoughts is much more difficult than controlling one's actions...

not to mention the fact that there is a quantum leap between having a naughty thought and actually choosing to act upon it - one does not necessarily lead to the other... it comes down to a choice in the end...*

sinful or not sinful though? god knows!

* eta: actually, it's not always a choice - sometimes the object of a person's lust just turns round and says "hey fuck off you creep!" and it all comes to nothing
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:06 PM   #135
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not to mention the fact that there is a quantum leap between having a naughty thought and actually choosing to act upon it - one does not necessarily lead to the other... it comes down to a choice in the end...*
Yes, it's ultimately a choice. But when the heat's turned up, and the hormones are a raging, it's a lot more difficult to think straight. If you've been in the heat of the moment, as most people have, you know of what I speak.

And of the following 2 choices, who do you honestly think will be more prepared to resist temptation of a married person's advances?

(A) A man who previously has let his attraction for the married person grow and has allowed himself to sexually fantasize about the person

(B) A man who previously has taken turned away lust for that person when it has popped up into his mind and has refused to allow himself to fantasize?

Person B will stand a much better chance at resisting the temptation because he has "trained for the battle", so to speak.
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