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Old 05-05-2011, 07:07 PM   #106
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That is my point, the context and the experiences are narrow thus shaping your view.
Everything is shaped by context. Do you believe that sex is always acceptable? Do you think it's okay to have sex with someone who is married to someone else? If not, then there is limit and context and restriction to "sex being okay" in your mind, as well. My idea of the proper limits and restrictions are different than yours, but you do have them.
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:22 PM   #107
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I didn't say that all nonbelievers are immoral. I said that without God, morality is subjective.

How does a moral standard get set if there is no perfect being to set the standard? How do we know that what our society says is wrong is actually wrong?
Oh, I know you weren't saying that. Quite the opposite actually. It's the implication that because of God, and therefore religion, nonbelievers are able to be moral.
A moral standard is set in us biologically. What makes morality any different than any other instinct? It's our ability to empathize that makes us moral, but empathy has a purely biological genesis.
The offence lies in that even if I chose not to believe in a God, religion would like to claim my morality as it's own
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:29 PM   #108
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Oh I completely agree. I find lots of women attractive.
Well I find lots of men attractive-and even if I have some sort of fantasy about them that automatically makes it lust and sinful? I just don't think you can regiment and control thought like that. Or that you necessarily should. And honestly I don't think God expects that. I think he expects respect for ourselves and for others, and I don't think sexual thoughts automatically equal disrespect. They can, but they don't always or automatically. If I'm attracted physically or emotionally to a married man or I fantasize about them that is automatically sinful? No-it's acting on that that is sinful. I can try with all my might to control that and to not be attracted at all, but I will fail and I have. But I do not act upon it.

It's all in how you treat that in your own mind and heart that makes all the difference. Because that will also dictate how you treat the other people involved.

Lust is selfishness- thinking you can do whatever you want, have whatever you want, treat others however you want in order to satisfy whatever it is that you want to satisfy. I think that is far more objectifying of others than a passing sexual attraction to a stranger is. Unless you're talking about violence or some other form of degradation, like I said before.
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:58 PM   #109
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Liberal Christians weren't offended by the portrayal of Jesus fantasizing about having sex with Mary Magdalene in Last Temptation?

I'm a conservative Christian and I was not offended by The Last Temptation of Christ.


Lust a sin?

The denotation of lust:
1. Intense or unrestrained sexual craving.

Yes, that is sin.


We are wired for sex. God created sex.
It's only natural that when we see a person attractive to us that
we have those thoughts.

It's something that most of us can control. Can you imagine a world
where our thoughts go unrestrained?

It's only then these desires become overwhelming and the
driving force in a persons life that it becomes sin.
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:17 PM   #110
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I'm a conservative Christian and I was not offended by The Last Temptation of Christ.
The Bible says that Christ was co-creator with God. Do you believe that Christ as God in the flesh, fantasized about having sex with his creation, Mary Magadalene?

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We are wired for sex. God created sex.
The Bible says that God designed it for certain context only.

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It's only natural that when we see a person attractive to us that
we have those thoughts.
Uh oh, I can feel the pull into one of my favorite theological topics- this would be the perfect seque into rebirth, 2 Corinthians 5:17 and its effects upon the desires of Christians, you know: the sin nature crucified and all that. Must - resist- the - temptation....
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:25 PM   #111
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The Bible says that God designed it for certain context only.
What verses are you referring to?
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:28 PM   #112
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Oh, I know you weren't saying that. Quite the opposite actually. It's the implication that because of God, and therefore religion, nonbelievers are able to be moral.
Actually, I'll go the opposite direction and say that judged by God's standards of morality, I am not moral.

That's why Christ died on the cross; so that, through his shed blood, he could redeem unrighteous mankind.

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What makes morality any different than any other instinct? It's our ability to empathize that makes us moral, but empathy has a purely biological genesis.
It does? That's proven?

Let's imagine that you are correct; that empathy has a purely biological genesis, that God did not create empathy. Since we are all different, won't we all have different empathy? And if empathy is the basis of morality, wouldn't that make morality subjective, dependent on the person's level of empathy?

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The offence lies in that even if I chose not to believe in a God, religion would like to claim my morality as it's own
If God exists, morality is HIS standard, not the invention of a religion.

If God doesn't exist, morality is completely subjective anyway.
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:29 PM   #113
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What verses are you referring to?
I've already quoted them in this thread. The verses that teach against adultery and fornication.
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:37 PM   #114
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I've already quoted them in this thread. The verses that teach against adultery and fornication.
Well this thread is 8 pages long now, so that would be like a needle in a small haystack.

But would you agree one of the reasons sex was designed by God would be to express love?

What if Jesus loved Mary in a romantic way? What if he had a desire to marry her? Could he not fantasize about that future?

Although you haven't actually come out and stated it you've somewhat admitted that fantasy and lust are in fact different, so why couldn't Jesus fantasize?
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:03 PM   #115
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Well this thread is 8 pages long now, so that would be like a needle in a small haystack.
But you were the one I posted them in response to in the first place.

I'll try to address the rest of the post tomorrow. I'm off to watch the final Daybreak on streaming Netflix.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:14 PM   #116
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Well this thread is 8 pages long now, so that would be like a needle in a small haystack.

But would you agree one of the reasons sex was designed by God would be to express love?

What if Jesus loved Mary in a romantic way? What if he had a desire to marry her? Could he not fantasize about that future?

Although you haven't actually come out and stated it you've somewhat admitted that fantasy and lust are in fact different, so why couldn't Jesus fantasize?
I know the question is not directed at me but I've always been taught that Jesus was both fully divine AND FULLY HUMAN so it stands to reason that he could *gasp* think those thoughts, have a sexual relationship..... It does not change the way I feel about God/Jesus/Bible/theology.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:14 PM   #117
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Actually, I'll go the opposite direction and say that judged by God's standards of morality, I am not moral.

That's why Christ died on the cross; so that, through his shed blood, he could redeem unrighteous mankind.
You know what I mean though. You have a set of standards that you would say are morally right. As do I. I don't use religion as a guide. It's innate. Yet religion claims that my moral standards are thanks to them (or rather, thanks to God) regardless of whether I am part of a religion or not.

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It does? That's proven?
Proven in the sense that evolution has been proven and there is no evidence for an intelligent designer (But I doubt we'll find middle ground on this one )

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Let's imagine that you are correct; that empathy has a purely biological genesis, that God did not create empathy. Since we are all different, won't we all have different empathy? And if empathy is the basis of morality, wouldn't that make morality subjective, dependent on the person's level of empathy?
Let's assume there is no God and empathy/morality is purely a function of evolution. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you is a fine basis for evolutionary success. We observe it in nature all the time from animals that can't even grasp the concept of God or religion
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:37 PM   #118
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I don't like the idea that God created us imperfect and because of that we should be guilty about our imperfections.

If I consciously do something wrong, I'll feel guilty about it, and rightly so. But having some thoughts about someone I find attractive, just because I can't help it? That seems awfully unfair and unrealistic of God to say I'm doing something wrong.
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:26 PM   #119
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There seems to be as much misunderstanding surrounding the concept of lust as there is about pride. Which is understandable considering "horny" and "narcissistic" are the foundational building blocks of human nature in today's mass media and pop culture.


And yes, that includes all the really good Ted Nugent songs.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:45 AM   #120
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There seems to be as much misunderstanding surrounding the concept of lust as there is about pride. Which is understandable considering "horny" and "narcissistic" are the foundational building blocks of human nature in today's mass media and pop culture.


And yes, that includes all the really good Ted Nugent songs.


so how do you understand lust and pride?

and, on the whole, really good thread.


for my part, i'd view lust in degrees ... we can lust after something and be perfectly in control of that moment of intense, animal desire. for me, i could lust after the really awesome lamp we just saw, a soft serve ice cream on a hot day, or what might be lurking in that guy's 501's. but i'm able to control that lust by recognizing what it is -- something primal (food! sex! acquisition!) and evaluating the context in which it arose and then regulating my behavior. i might decide that i don't have $200 to drop on a lamp, that i need to drop 10 more lbs so no ice cream, and it really would be in appropriate to walk up to the dude in the jeans and hit on him (especially because i am virtually married). that seems to me to be lust with a lowercase "l" and a part of human nature, and the subjugation of which separates us from animals, and the better we are at delaying gratification, the more successful we are likely to be in life itself.

but then we might consider all-consuming Lust to be the sexual form of the "Greed is Good" speech from Wall Street. that the best sex is a lot, that the best partners are the hottest, that sex is a sport, and an individual's worth is measured by their sexual prowess and list of impressive partners. when sex becomes like money, when it becomes like a material object, when it can drive you to neglect other aspects of your life and the life of others -- what some might call (the very problematic term) "sex addition" -- then i think we can say that this is A Bad Thing.
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