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Old 05-05-2011, 04:23 PM   #91
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for example I can relate to feeling violent impulses towards other drivers like 80s mentioned, but I've also had the experience more than once of (ill-advisedly) mentioning to someone that I felt an overwhelming urge to punch so-and-so repeatedly at some particular moment and gotten a shocked look and an "I've never wanted to hit anyone in my life, ever!"-type response. And that's fine, but I'm not going to moralize the fact that I'm naturally more aggression-prone than that person and feel ashamed over it.
Ha ha, just want to also let everyone know I'm not really a violent person and I don't want to shoot missles at anyone's car (unless there's an evil mean person in it). I just used that as an example of one of those crazy thoughts that come out of nowhere, that is easily dismissed.
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:04 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post

Example: I'm not saying that lusting after your girlfriend will cause you to view all women as sex objects. But I am saying that if someone frequently purposely lusts and fantasizes about passing strangers or Hollywood celebrities, musicians, etc, it is likely that it will impact the way he views women. It is likely that he will respect them less as individual human beings and treat them as sex objects.
It isn't always true (not that you said it was).
There are plenty of men who have high desire for women who also respect women to perhaps even a disproportionate degree.

But yeah, the opposite is more likely.
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:18 PM   #93
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It isn't always true (not that you said it was).
There are plenty of men who have high desire for women who also respect women to perhaps even a disproportionate degree.

But yeah, the opposite is more likely.
Thanks, and I want to make it clear again that I'm not talking about someone having sexual desire for their romantic partner. I'm talking about men who frequently lust and fantasize after strangers.
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:27 PM   #94
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Thinking about this conversation earlier and was reminded of the other extreme to this equation, corporal mortification. From my understanding part of those that believe in cm believe any thought of sex or attraction is dangerous. Anyone know more about this, other than what's in the DaVinci Code
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:48 PM   #95
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I would define lust as a consuming desire to have something that you shouldn't have, to the point where you lose self-control and your strong desire causes you to do something wrong. "Thou shalt not covet" comes to mind; you should not get so wrapped up in wanting something that isn't yours because it ultimately ends in you or someone else getting hurt.

Being attracted to a person is not necessarily lust; it's natural to think that other people are attractive in a sexual way. It's what you do with those feelings that can make it a sin.

Lust can lead to a lot of worse things like theft, rape, murder, unplanned pregnancy, divorce, tyranny, etc. It doesn't always have to do with sex. Lust is like a root condition that leads to a wide assortment of problems, and that's what makes it a sin. IMO.
I agree with that 100%
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:50 PM   #96
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Thanks, and I want to make it clear again that I'm not talking about someone having sexual desire for their romantic partner. I'm talking about men who frequently lust and fantasize after strangers.
At the risk of coming of as a total perv, I would say I fantasize about women I might see and dont know. If a girl walks past me and has a nice body, I'm going to think about it for sure. And I allow myself to because I think it's healthy. You might argue that I'm treating that person as an object and you might be right at that moment in time, but it's a primal urge, thus perfectly natural. As a matter of fact, I would encourage strange women, or even men for that matter, to do the same with me. I'd find it flattering. And for all of that, I still have a great deal of respect for women. The two can coexist
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:11 PM   #97
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This is an interesting discussion.

I would define lust as a consuming desire to have something that you shouldn't have, to the point where you lose self-control and your strong desire causes you to do something wrong. "Thou shalt not covet" comes to mind; you should not get so wrapped up in wanting something that isn't yours because it ultimately ends in you or someone else getting hurt.

Being attracted to a person is not necessarily lust; it's natural to think that other people are attractive in a sexual way. It's what you do with those feelings that can make it a sin.

Lust can lead to a lot of worse things like theft, rape, murder, unplanned pregnancy, divorce, tyranny, etc. It doesn't always have to do with sex. Lust is like a root condition that leads to a wide assortment of problems, and that's what makes it a sin. IMO.
Absolutely.

I believe that an all-consuming lust for or an all-consuming interest in just anything can lead to bad priorities and a lack of perspective on what it is that the individual actually needs. The example you gave was theft, rape, murder, etc. but it can be something more simple like paying less attention to your spouse or having your attention directed where it doesn't need to be. Obviously, fantasy can go so far as to influence one to commit a crime, but don't overlook that dwelling on sex or money or anything else (the Bible throws out the catch-all "idolatry") is harmful in and of itself. For believers, the solution is to direct your attention to God with the assumption that He will give you the right priorities, but for anyone else it's just really important to make sure you keep a good balance going. I don't believe the value of this particular commandment is solely religious.

So, is lust a sin? In a religious context it obviously is, although the definition varies to a wild degree and, as a 20 year old guy, I am hardly the one to judge you on a personal basis. It bothers me a little that only those with rather flat sex drives seem to be able to align themselves with the Bible on this, whereas so many are more or less forced to be laissez-faire about it because it's impossible to do, but I suppose that was the point of Christ's birth and death. There's just no way to obey most of what's in the Bible to a T, so I'm convinced it's all about motivation. My faith has become a lot more about practicality these days.
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:11 PM   #98
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In my experience, people who have hung ups about sexuality, lust and everything else, have issues and are uncomfortable about sex, intimacy and the opposite sex. .
Agree


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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post

Example: I'm not saying that lusting after your girlfriend will cause you to view all women as sex objects. But I am saying that if someone frequently purposely lusts and fantasizes about passing strangers or Hollywood celebrities, musicians, etc, it is likely that it will impact the way he views women. It is likely that he will respect them less as individual human beings and treat them as sex objects.
I think this example and how you treat it seems like you already view sex as dirty and wrong, like you can't possibly think about sex in any of a gazillion contexts without it turning into some foul obsession that take's over one's self-control. IMO, sex is a lot of things that are the completely opposite and even having passing thoughts or 5 second fantasies about random people does not instantly dehumanize them.

I think you are making this too much about just sex and ignoring other dimensions on what attracts people. I am attracted to a certain "type" of man. All the guys I've ever been seriously attracted to, including my husband, or even if you started showing me flashcards of guys and I had to make a snap decision about whether I thought they were attractive or not...they are all pretty much the same type. If I see a random person and think "he's attractive..." it's not because of some uncontrollable urge to have sex with the next person that walks by, but because I'm attracted to a certain type, and there's probably tens of millions of people out there who fit that type. For me it's always more about the person himself/herself than just whether I'm in a horny mood and find random people attractive. Sometimes, I would see someone and find them pretty attractive at first, and then getting to know them, they become less attractive. Honestly I can't think of a time where I found someone unattractive at first and grew to change my mind. All the people I've been with or had "crushes" on or whatever you want to call it were people that I was initially attracted to from the beginning. If there's anything I've wondered about as far as what we do and don't control, it's how we become attracted to the type we're attracted to....

Anyway, as far as lust is concerned, I guess for me I would define "lust" as when those thoughts or urges become detrimental to others including relationships that person might already be in. I think you can damage yourself and/or your relationships without actually cheating on someone.

Whether or not it's a "sin", well, to me it doesn't matter. I don't think it's OK to get wrapped up in fantasy to the detriment of your relationships with others and living a fulfilling life. There are a lot of things that aren't explicitly defined as "sinful" that I think should be. Normal functioning people know when too far is too far, they don't need a god or a Bible to spell it out for them.
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:22 PM   #99
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I think treating a person as an object is, for example, street harassment. Or approaching them in a dehumanizing, disrespectful way. That would be action based upon whatever thoughts you're having, action that disregards the humanity of the other person. I think a fantasy could be dehumanizing if it involved violence or any other degrading aspects- and if the fantasies are all consuming, taking over your life in some way, divorced from reality, etc.

Seeing a stranger on the street and finding him/her attractive is fine and healthy, as long as it's always respectful of yourself and the other person.
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:25 PM   #100
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I think this example and how you treat it seems like you already view sex as dirty and wrong,
I have said that I believe that sex is a good thing in the context that I believe God designed it - marriage. I do not see how you are inferring from anything I have written that I think sex is wrong or dirty in the proper context.

I'm not the only person who believes that sex is not morally right in all contexts. Most people think there's at least some context in which sex is wrong. For instance, most people believe sex with someone married to someone else is wrong.

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IMO, sex is a lot of things that are the completely opposite and even having passing thoughts or 5 second fantasies about random people does not instantly dehumanize them.
In reference to "passing thoughts", I have repeatedly said that "passing thoughts" are not sin, because you can't can't control when they happen.

In reference to "5 second fantasies", I didn't say that they will necessarily lead someone dehumanize the opposite sex. I said that frequent lusts and fantasies about strangers is likely to lead to that.

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I think you are making this too much about just sex and ignoring other dimensions on what attracts people. I am attracted to a certain "type" of man. All the guys I've ever been seriously attracted to, including my husband, or even if you started showing me flashcards of guys and I had to make a snap decision about whether I thought they were attractive or not...they are all pretty much the same type. If I see a random person and think "he's attractive..." it's not because of some uncontrollable urge to have sex with the next person that walks by, but because I'm attracted to a certain type, and there's probably tens of millions of people out there who fit that type. For me it's always more about the person himself/herself than just whether I'm in a horny mood and find random people attractive. Sometimes, I would see someone and find them pretty attractive at first, and then getting to know them, they become less attractive. Honestly I can't think of a time where I found someone unattractive at first and grew to change my mind. All the people I've been with or had "crushes" on or whatever you want to call it were people that I was initially attracted to from the beginning. If there's anything I've wondered about as far as what we do and don't control, it's how we become attracted to the type we're attracted to....
The reason I am discussing this in relation to sex is because that's what exclusively what the topic is about - sexual lust. I am not talking about other attraction factors because it doesn't fit into the conversation I'm having.
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:27 PM   #101
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Seeing a stranger on the street and finding him/her attractive is fine and healthy, as long as it's always respectful of yourself and the other person.
Oh I completely agree. I find lots of women attractive.
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:33 PM   #102
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The reason I am discussing this in relation to sex is because that's what exclusively what the topic is about - sexual lust. I am not talking about other attraction factors because it doesn't fit into the conversation I'm having.
But sexual lust is not always degrading, in fact I think sometimes it can be the opposite - putting someone up on a pedestal, probably more along the lines of idolization as far as what is the "sinful" aspect, not really the sex part. Neither extreme is healthy, but I don't automatically think sexual feelings about people are so extreme.

And I think type definitely fits into the conversation because I personally would never have a lustful thought about someone that didn't fit the type (not that I'm sitting here thinking lustful thoughts all day, just sayin'...). I brought it up because I don't believe any of it is about one making a conscious choice what religious code to abide by. Some people have really strong sexual attractions and others have little if any. It's easy enough to find some scientific or religious text that thereby justifies what we know about ourselves deep down but could not *really* change.
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:34 PM   #103
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I do not see how you are inferring from anything I have written that I think sex is wrong or dirty in the proper context.
That is my point, the context and the experiences are narrow thus shaping your view.
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:36 PM   #104
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A topic of frequent debate is whether true right and wrong can exist without a higher power to define what is right and wrong. My assertion is that without God, all morality is ultimately subjective.
I always find it a little offensive when religion claims ownership of moral right and wrong. As if, without them, non believers would be amoral savages. In a way, it's sort of like saying "well, you don't believe in us, but you should thank us that you aren't all out raping each other right now" (an extreme example, to be sure ).There are a ton of examples of morality in the animal kingdom. And it's been shown that seemingly selfless acts are actually beneficial to survival. I don't need a religious moral compass to know what's right and what's wrong. I'm not saying that followers do; I'm sure the majority would be perfectly fine without having to consult the bible for all their choices. But to put a claim on the invention of morality always seemed so offputting to me
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:03 PM   #105
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I always find it a little offensive when religion claims ownership of moral right and wrong. As if, without them, non believers would be amoral savages. In a way, it's sort of like saying "well, you don't believe in us, but you should thank us that you aren't all out raping each other right now" (an extreme example, to be sure ).There are a ton of examples of morality in the animal kingdom. And it's been shown that seemingly selfless acts are actually beneficial to survival. I don't need a religious moral compass to know what's right and what's wrong. I'm not saying that followers do; I'm sure the majority would be perfectly fine without having to consult the bible for all their choices. But to put a claim on the invention of morality always seemed so offputting to me
I didn't say that all nonbelievers are immoral. I said that without God, morality is subjective.

How does a moral standard get set if there is no perfect being to set the standard? How do we know that what our society says is wrong is actually wrong?
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