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Old 05-04-2011, 04:23 PM   #31
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I believe lust is a sin.
If you are going with the definition of and concept of sin, then the adherents to the concept should be able to define it, what falls under it or not.

I think it is silly to require separate plates, utensils, refrigerators, dishwashers for dairy products and meat.

I am not going to say separating them is not 'kosher'. I think the concept makes no sense, is not practical and of no real benefit. Except to control adherents to that faith.
If the people that thought up the concept want to follow it, that is their business.
I do not believe that choosing to follow the 'kosher' concept is advantages, or that everyone should be encourage to buy into it.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:42 PM   #32
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I didn't say he told dirty jokes -- I said I liked the idea of him laughing at one. (To me it makes him human.)
What's the difference between telling a dirty joke or laughing at one, as far as sin is concerned? In Ephesians 5:4, do you think Paul was saying "don't tell dirty jokes, but if someone does, feel free to partake and enjoy and laugh"?

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Given that he hung out with guys who were mostly illiterate and uneducated, chances are good their vernacular was more vulgar than we might like to admit.
I was on patrol with cops for 7 years. Cops can have pretty vulgar mouths, I can tell you that. But if I didn't laugh at their dirty jokes (because I don't like dirty jokes), why would Christ, who of course is far greater than I, have a problem refraining form dirty jokes?

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Paul himself is given to some vulgarities in the New Testament -- we've cleaned up the language to make it polite, but it's still there.
Paul was known to tell it how it is, ie: telling a group of people that they should just go the entire way and "emasculate themselves". However, there is no evidence that Paul told "dirty jokes". I've been known to call people jackasses and drop the "S" bomb, as well as "what the hell". I'm not saying that it's right for me to say those things, but I am pointing it out to show that using that kind of language does not mean that person is a dirty joke teller, or dirty joke-listener.


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Among the definitions of "lust" is this:
a passionate or overmastering desire or craving (usually followed by "for"): a lust for power.
Is that from an English dictionary or a Greek dictionary? English dictionaries don't tell the whole story when looking up words for Bible study. If Greek, what dictionary are you using? Bullinger's Lexicon has these two definitions for the verb lust: (The first definition applies to Matthew 5:28)

(1) To fix the desire upon, to have the affections directed toward
(2) To desire upon, to desire earnestly
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:14 PM   #33
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I'd like to know why the author of that article says that the Greek word means "wife". In Bullinger's Lexicon, it means simply "woman, maiden or damsel" in that verse.

The interesting thing here is that I can't find any definitions of adultery that do not involve at least one marries person.

So, by saying the general term "woman" and "adultery" together here, we can indeed logically conclude that Christ was referring to the either the luster or lustee being married.

So, you are right about that verse. I can admit that.

However, let's look beyond this verse and look at how it fits with other verses in the New Testament.

There are other verses in the New Testament that state that fornication is a sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 13, 18)

A broad point Christ is making in this verse is that the desire to sin in your heart is equal to actually committing the sin.

Now, if it is true that lusting with adulterous thoughts is the same as committing the sin of adultery, doesn't it follow that lusting with fornication thoughts is the same as committing the sin of fornication?

1 Corinthians 10:6-8 ties lust and fornication together in this way:

"Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication,



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Well there doesn't seem to be a agreed upon definition in here, but by your definition it seems very difficult. Part of dating is sexual attraction, is it not?
I would think that most dating involves sexual attraction. But sexual attraction is biological at its core. It doesn't have to result in attraction. Just because you may be sexually attracted to someone doesn't mean you have to commit the actions of lust or fantasizing.
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:15 PM   #34
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i know we're totally going off topic but i think this is so interesting that i want to respond ... no, i don't think you are less of a human being for that. i think you are exerting a great, almost unnatural degree of self-control. actually having sex involves two willing participants, and there are people who choose not to have sex either because of the unavailability of an appropriate partner or because they do not yet have the correct circumstances in which they feel it is appropriate to have sex with said appropriate partner.

while there are a small amount of people who are genuinely asexual, the vast majority of human beings -- male, female, gay or straight -- are hardwired to want to have sex. i don't think there's anything wrong with that, and since you believe in God (i myself remain agnostic), that's obviously what he wanted us to do. yes, self-control is a good thing, as is the delaying of gratification, but it does strike me as odd this wishing away of "lustful" thoughts. there is an animal aspect of sexuality, the drive itself, that has a critical evolutionary function for the past, what, 65 milllion years -- up until my parent's generation, we lived in a world where children (and mothers) used to die in childbirth, in a world where if you made it to 50 you were doing well, in a world where disease and accidents and plague wiped out millions of people, it really does seem necessary for the survival of the species for most people to have a very, very strong drive for sexual relations that are about little more than friction for the sake of ejaculation. it seems to me a part of being human.

for example, when looking at men, orgasm and ejaculation are actually two separate things. some people ejaculate with no orgasm, and some people orgasm without ejaculation, but that's either the result of training or dysfunction. sex does feel good, and it feels good so you have incentive to do it again and again and again. men especially when they are younger get frequent erections, and every man has a virtually inexhaustible supply of semen for most of his lifespan. clearly, nature wants us to have sex. where we come in is recognizing the dangers of unregulated sexuality -- the #1 consequence being unwanted, unintended children ... and, imho, that's where most religious instruction against sex outside of marriage actually find their motivation, rather than from God himself -- and we thusly regulate our urges in the same way that we don't eat ice cream and nachos all day everyday.

now, with all that in mind, i think it's entirely possible for people to willingly and happily subjugate their sexual urges, thoughts, impulses, or whatever. you obviously have thought about it and have arrived at an intellectual understanding of the role that sexuality should play in your life. and that is fine. i totally respect that and am impressed at how thoroughly your faith influences your choices. but i also think it would be remiss, 80s, to not recognize the fact that many, many people are unable to exercise the restraint you are able to -- and to exercise that restraint in a way that does no psychological damage.

i suppose my own view is that being sexual is a bit like being a superhero -- and that with great power (and it is a great thing) comes great responsibility. so act accordingly.
Thank you very much for that nice post, and the kind words you said to me, Irvine.
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:25 PM   #35
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Just because you may be sexually attracted to someone doesn't mean you have to commit the actions of lust or fantasizing.
This is where your definition is still hazy to me.

Doesn't the act of sexual attraction automatically trigger some amount of fantasizing? Of touch, kiss, smell, etc? How is there attraction without thought?

Is it only "fantasizing" or "lust" when the thought is of intercourse?

I'm not grasping your definition.
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:28 PM   #36
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Ah, so you are my head shrink now? Must be nice work, for someone who doesn't even know me. Where do I send the check for your useful diagnosis?

Here's the real scoop from someone who actually knows me (myself). I'm 43 years old and single. Those thoughts do come into my head but frankly, not much, because I don't focus on that aspect of life at all. But those are not lusts unless I dwell on them and make them mine. I do not want to lust, therefore when those thoughts pop up in my mind, I try to turn them away. This is not "to the detriment of my well being", as I have no desire or need to focus on that part of my life. If i were a married person, of course I would want to have sexual feelings about my wife, but I'm not married.

As for guilt, oh gee whiz, that shows you how little you do know me at all. I don't invest in unreasonable guilt at all. I believe that Christ has forgiven me for all sins past and present. If I do mess up and sin, I confess it and move on. I am not stuck in guilt, I can assure you.
Oh cool, a snarky, assholish response!

It doesn't take a 'head shrink' to know that repressing perfectly normal and reasonable thoughts isn't good for you. The fact that you 'dont focus on that aspect of life at all' is definitely not of the norm. Of course, different people have different sexual thoughts and tendencies, but to deny them outright is unnatural. This line of yours is very telling: "I do not want to lust, therefore when those thoughts pop up in my mind, I try to turn them away". Pretty much exactly what I'm getting at.
The whole 'lust is a sin' business is so transparent. The church needs followers. The best way for them to make sure you stick with them is to make you feel like you need them. What's the best way to do that? Tell people that thoughts everyone has, are sinful. You can live a life without stealing, or killing, or whatever, but everyone has sexual thoughts because it's the way were were designed (not intelligently designed). It's sort of the catch-all sin that's unavoidable. Then put the 'sin' of lust along side murdering and stealing. It certainly doesn't keep good company, it must be really bad! So you feel bad when you have those thoughts that are normal and that everyone has and that the devil certainly didn't plant in your head, and go to confession to be absolved. So very transparent it's a joke
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:08 PM   #37
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Oh cool, a snarky, assholish response!
I chose to respond in a snarky manner to your ridiculous, presumptious and downright rude psychological diagnosis of someone you don't even know.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:13 PM   #38
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This is where your definition is still hazy to me.

Doesn't the act of sexual attraction automatically trigger some amount of fantasizing? Of touch, kiss, smell, etc? How is there attraction without thought?

Is it only "fantasizing" or "lust" when the thought is of intercourse?

I'm not grasping your definition.
I'll try to explain better. The verses I mention specifically refer to adultery lust and fornication lust as being sinful. The Bible doesn't mention the desire to kiss an unmarried person as being a sin. And even though I don't consider it a sin, I don't see any use in fantasizing about even kissing someone. If I do kiss someone, I do. But I don't see that it does me any good to fantasize about the possibility.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:18 PM   #39
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I chose to respond in a snarky manner to your ridiculous, presumptious and downright rude psychological diagnosis of someone you don't even know.
Really? Because I wasn't being rude at all. As a matter of fact, I was making a general statement to your general statement. But it's really not the point, as human nature is just that: human. It applies to everyone, thus I don't need to know you personally to make comments on repressed emotions. Go ahead and get all bent out of shape about it
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:22 PM   #40
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I'll try to explain better. The verses I mention specifically refer to adultery lust and fornication lust as being sinful. The Bible doesn't mention the desire to kiss an unmarried person as being a sin. And even though I don't consider it a sin, I don't see any use in fantasizing about even kissing someone. If I do kiss someone, I do. But I don't see that it does me any good to fantasize about the possibility.
But I don't know anyone who doesn't think about kissing someone before they actually kiss them, even if it's for a brief second before the act. This is why I find this whole "thought police" type of sin very odd.

I understand Nathan's definition, but I'm not sure yours works.

I think in order for Jesus to be human he would have had to have sexual feelings or thoughts. It would be how to control those feelings or thoughts that would be the difference.
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:17 PM   #41
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I don't know about you guys but this Paul fella seems like a bit of a buzzkill.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:00 PM   #42
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But I don't know anyone who doesn't think about kissing someone before they actually kiss them, even if it's for a brief second before the act.
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. I don' think there's anything wrong with thinking about kissing someone. What I'm saying is that I'm not going to fantasize about kissiing someone, because there's no need. If I kiss someone I do; if not, what good does pretending I'm kissing someone do?
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:12 PM   #43
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Really? Because I wasn't being rude at all. As a matter of fact, I was making a general statement to your general statement. But it's really not the point, as human nature is just that: human. It applies to everyone, thus I don't need to know you personally to make comments on repressed emotions. Go ahead and get all bent out of shape about it
Dude, you don't know me from Adam. You can't say a darned thing about my psyche. I don't judge your "emotional well being" you would do well to lay off mine, if you don't want "snarky comments".

The "general statement" of mine you replied to was not a "general statement" at all. It was "a specific question" regarding someone else's statement. Your "general statement" wasn't general. It was pointed right at me and my beliefs. Of course, it was personal. I was the only one here expressing those beliefs, and you responded directly to me!

Are you really trying to tell me that if I had said the following to you and about you and people who hold your belief system, that you would not have taken it personally?

"Hey, if you're over a certain age and you think about sex frequently, you're either a sex addict, no doubt to the detriment of your well being, or you are feeling a great deal of guilt and remorse over your failed relationships with your family.

I just think that things you say reek of an overactive sex drive at an unhealthy level. I think it's this overactive sex drive that causes people to reduce all members of the opposite gender to mere sex objects."
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:27 PM   #44
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If only you could repress your anger and defensiveness too
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:31 PM   #45
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Dude, you don't know me from Adam.
you're a better dresser
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