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Old 05-06-2011, 05:18 PM   #136
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Yes, it's ultimately a choice. But when the heat's turned up, and the hormones are a raging, it's a lot more difficult to think straight. If you've been in the heat of the moment, as most people have, you know of what I speak.

And of the following 2 choices, who do you honestly think will be more prepared to resist temptation of a married person's advances?

(A) A man who previously has let his attraction for the married person grow and has allowed himself to sexually fantasize about the person

(B) A man who previously has taken turned away lust for that person when it has popped up into his mind and has refused to allow himself to fantasize?

Person B will stand a much better chance at resisting the temptation because he has "trained for the battle", so to speak.

i'm not really qualified to argue really - i'm still with the guy i met when i was 18 lol, and in my life experience i've only ever been in a position where i've been trying to escape/fight off unwelcome attention from other men who didn't seem to care i was married - not pleasant at all... plus i don't find it hard to think straight, and i'm pretty good at controlling my actions - logic is my curse lol
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:26 PM   #137
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This isn't a very good reason. By this logic he could never be interested in anyone romantically or be tempted. Therefore he's not all man.
.

He's 100% man, but he's also 100% God, able to do much more than any man, and remember the Bible says that "God is not a respecter of person" - he doesn't play favorites.

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There's a lot personally we don't know of Jesus, there are no books written in his first person, nor from her perspective, so we just don't know. We don't know what he ever said to her in private, or felt in private.
Right, all we know is what is written about him, so that's what we have to go by. And the most credible writings about him specifically state that he asked John to take care of Mary his mother. If he loved Mary Mag romantically, wouldn't he have asked John to take care of her as well?

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Did Jesus not play as a kid, did Jesus not learn a trade, did he not make time to make friends? Why would he do all of this if he knew his mission?
Yes, he did all that. But he needed a trade (he had to have a source of income). Marriage is a serious undertaking that takes up a person's time and effort, much more so than playing as a kid or making friends. And my point was that marriage would have seriously diverted him from his overwhelming mission.
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The idea of wanting to marry and actually pursuing it are two different things. But to think Jesus never thought about it seems to go against the idea that he was really human.
I didn't say he never "thought about it". I'm sure he got lonely. But fantasizing is an active choice that requires effort of mind. According to the scriptures I posted earlier he would have sinned if he sexually fantasized about Mary Magdalene. Even nonsexual fantasy by Jesus makes no sense to me, but that doesn't matter to me, since it's not forbidden as a sin by scripture.
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This definition makes no sense to me and I would say is absolutely impossible.
What's impossible? For fantasy not be sexually oriented? I used to fantasize about playing my synth on stage all the time. I even fantasize about saving the world from bad guys every once in a while. But sexual fantasy about a person always comes from sexual lust for that person. From where else would it come?
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The Greek scriputes do not have a single word that is uniquely translated as sexual lust, so I'm not sure where you are getting this definition.
There is a Greek word for "lust" that is used in the New Testament, and I posted those definitions. That word is used in Matt 5:28, when Jesus says that lusting to commit adultery is the same as actually committing the act. So, the "lust" in that verse is definitely referring to sexual lust.
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:28 PM   #138
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i'm not really qualified to argue really - i'm still with the guy i met when i was 18 lol, and in my life experience i've only ever been in a position where i've been trying to escape/fight off unwelcome attention from other men who didn't seem to care i was married - not pleasant at all... plus i don't find it hard to think straight, and i'm pretty good at controlling my actions - logic is my curse lol
You ought to carry a big stick around and whap those men upside their heads!
I am very good at controlling my actions as well, but there's no reason for me to put myself in hormone's way. They can be very powerful.
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:04 PM   #139
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.
and remember the Bible says that "God is not a respecter of person" - he doesn't play favorites.
Not sure what this means. Jesus was friends with Paul, but wasn't going out fishing with George, is that not playing favorites?



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Right, all we know is what is written about him, so that's what we have to go by. And the most credible writings about him specifically state that he asked John to take care of Mary his mother. If he loved Mary Mag romantically, wouldn't he have asked John to take care of her as well?
Or he may have already made arrangements. Maybe because he chose not to get married he didn't want to make it public. Just because it wasn't written about doesn't mean it didn't happen, I'm sure Jesus celebrated birthdays or his parents anniversary but it wasn't written about.



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What's impossible? For fantasy not be sexually oriented? I used to fantasize about playing my synth on stage all the time. I even fantasize about saving the world from bad guys every once in a while. But sexual fantasy about a person always comes from sexual lust for that person. From where else would it come?
It's impossible given YOUR definition. You've used fantasy, sexual thought, and lust almost interchangeable. You said sexual fantasy and lust go hand in hand, but you define sexual fantasy as any kind of sexual thought. Who do you know has sex without at least once thinking about it? Given your definition the only way NOT to sin is have sex with your wife the night you get married and somehow right at that very moment when both of you are naked the know how of what to do will just occur... That seems possible to you?
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There is a Greek word for "lust" that is used in the New Testament, and I posted those definitions. That word is used in Matt 5:28, when Jesus says that lusting to commit adultery is the same as actually committing the act. So, the "lust" in that verse is definitely referring to sexual lust.
You're twisting this. The original text uses the word "επιθυμία", it's only used once in the Bible in a sexual context.

The word is also used in Luke 22 when Christ is saying that he "επιθυμία" or desires to eat passover.

So let's not pretend that there is this very obvious definition setforth in the Bible.

So the word has different uses, just like the link I showed you before where woman and wife often used the same word.
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:50 PM   #140
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so how do you understand lust and pride?

and, on the whole, really good thread.
I'm not a theologian so I can only tell you how I live my live. Many people have mentioned the term "all-consuming" and that in may ways is the key to me. In the same way that I don't feel drink is a sin but drunkenness is, or money a deterrent to heaven but the love of money is, I define lust as a driving force in one's life. And lust can be good. Immigrants lusting for freedom seek the shores of America. I believe those lusting for righteousness, redemption and true joy will find those things in Christ. But one must not lust for or love anything more than he loves God.

A thought reaps an action,
An action reaps a habit,
A habit reaps our character,
Our character reaps our destiny

Biblical pride is when one believes he can judge, without God's wisdom, which thoughts and habits he can or should control.

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"[The Enemy] has filled His world full of pleasures. There are things for humans to do all day long without His minding in the least - sleeping, washing, eating, drinking, making love, playing, praying, working. Everything has to be twisted before it's any use to us."
--Screwtape
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:43 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post
Yes, it's ultimately a choice. But when the heat's turned up, and the hormones are a raging, it's a lot more difficult to think straight. If you've been in the heat of the moment, as most people have, you know of what I speak.

And of the following 2 choices, who do you honestly think will be more prepared to resist temptation of a married person's advances?

(A) A man who previously has let his attraction for the married person grow and has allowed himself to sexually fantasize about the person

(B) A man who previously has taken turned away lust for that person when it has popped up into his mind and has refused to allow himself to fantasize?

Person B will stand a much better chance at resisting the temptation because he has "trained for the battle", so to speak.
It's not just two choices. It never is.
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Old 05-06-2011, 08:56 PM   #142
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My reality is the same as yours, and I am a guy. The thought "she'd be a good lay" doesn't pop into my mind, either.
Are you seriously saying that you've never ogled a girl wearing a short skirt on the street, near the office, whatever, and used that memory for wanking fantasies later?
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Old 05-06-2011, 09:46 PM   #143
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Fascinating thread everyone. . .

Clearly the great discussions these days in FYM aren't about politics or world events but about philosophy, morality, religion etc. . .

I tend to agree with 80's on this subject, though I think he keeps being painted into a corner. He keeps trying to distinguish between random sexual thoughts that "pop into your head" and dwelling on the thought and developing it at lenght. Yet I keep hearing posters suggesting he's crying "sin" the moment a sexual thought pops into one's head.

I feel that the difference between natural sexual attraction/thoughts about someone else and "sinful lust" is a personal thing. . .no one can really judge what is going on in a person's head other than the person themselves.

In my experience, extended fantasizing/lusting after someone is a rather exhausting and demoralizing prospect. I went through that a few years ago regarding a colleague at work and it was pretty miserable (especially because I was and am married and knew I could never realize that fantasy). I just had to weather it out, and then one day, I literally woke up and I was back to normal. The "fever" had broken, so to speak. My wife and I still occasionally see this person though we don't work together anymore and those feelings/thoughts are just. . .gone. So at least from my perspective I don't know why anyone would WANT to be caught up in lust.

There was this movie a couple years back--Rachel Bilson was in it? Can't remember the name. . .but it speaks to this issue, if I recall.
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:55 PM   #144
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Are you seriously saying that you've never ogled a girl wearing a short skirt on the street, near the office, whatever, and used that memory for wanking fantasies later?
Not that it's any of your business, but no, that particular thing is not one of the sins I have committed.

I'm not saying I haven't committed sexual sin. As I have plainly written in this thread, I have.

I'm certainly not proud of any of them.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:14 PM   #145
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Not sure what this means. Jesus was friends with Paul, but wasn't going out fishing with George, is that not playing favorites?
The scriptures say that God doesn't show partiality. But maybe you're right; that probably doesn't apply to this issue.


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It's impossible given YOUR definition. You've used fantasy, sexual thought, and lust almost interchangeable. You said sexual fantasy and lust go hand in hand, but you define sexual fantasy as any kind of sexual thought.
I've never defined fantasy as "any kind of sexual thought". In fact, I have repeatedly stated (as maycocksean points out on my behalf) that sexual thoughts that pop up in your head are not in your own control and are not a sin.

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Who do you know has sex without at least once thinking about it? Given your definition the only way NOT to sin is have sex with your wife the night you get married and somehow right at that very moment when both of you are naked the know how of what to do will just occur... That seems possible to you?
I've never said that to think "I want to have sex with my wife or my girlfriend when we are married" is a sin. In fact, like everyone else has been saying, it's natural for someone to want to have sex. But like I've said many times, lust is dwelling on the sexual thoughts and cultivating the thoughts.

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You're twisting this. The original text uses the word "επιθυμία", it's only used once in the Bible in a sexual context.
So, yes, lust can be for more than sex.

The word is also used in Luke 22 when Christ is saying that he "επιθυμία" or desires to eat passover.

So let's not pretend that there is this very obvious definition setforth in the Bible.
You say I'm twisting it, but you didn't even properly represent what I actually wrote.

Look again at what I wrote, that you were referring to:

There is a Greek word for "lust" that is used in the New Testament, and I posted those definitions. That word is used in Matt 5:28, when Jesus says that lusting to commit adultery is the same as actually committing the act. So, the "lust" in that verse is definitely referring to sexual lust.

I did not say that the Greek word for lust in the Bible only deals with sex. I clearly and plainly wrote that in Matt. 5:28, that Greek word "refers" to "sexual lust". And it does. That verse is plainly about adultery; it even uses the word adultery.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:19 PM   #146
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Fascinating thread everyone. . .

I tend to agree with 80's on this subject, though I think he keeps being painted into a corner. He keeps trying to distinguish between random sexual thoughts that "pop into your head" and dwelling on the thought and developing it at length. Yet I keep hearing posters suggesting he's crying "sin" the moment a sexual thought pops into one's head.
Thank you so much; if you were here right now, I think I would kiss you!

I have indeed reiterated that point so many times, I think I could type it in my sleep. Thanks to you and the others like Irvine who have acknowledged it from the start.

And thank you for the backup.

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In my experience, extended fantasizing/lusting after someone is a rather exhausting and demoralizing prospect. I went through that a few years ago regarding a colleague at work and it was pretty miserable (especially because I was and am married and knew I could never realize that fantasy). I just had to weather it out, and then one day, I literally woke up and I was back to normal. The "fever" had broken, so to speak. My wife and I still occasionally see this person though we don't work together anymore and those feelings/thoughts are just. . .gone. So at least from my perspective I don't know why anyone would WANT to be caught up in lust.
Thanks for sharing that, and I agree completely.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:23 PM   #147
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It's not just two choices. It never is.
Hi Phil, I don't understand. In my scenario, we've got one man who allows himself to fantasize about a married woman and one who doesn't allow himself to fantasize about a married woman. I'm interested in what you would say the 3rd choice is. Thanks.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:28 PM   #148
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Hi Phil, I don't understand. In my scenario, we've got one man who allows himself to fantasize about a married woman and one who doesn't allow himself to fantasize about a married woman. I'm interested in what you would say the 3rd choice is. Thanks.
Sure. I'm saying there isn't just "allow" and "not allow." It's not a "thinking and fantasizing every moment" or "completely block it out" kind of issue. Maybe I fantasize about a person once. Or maybe randomly a couple of times but still rarely. There are varying degrees.

Also, just as an FYI, my name's not Phil, the user name is a reference to me being a Phillies fan.
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Old 05-07-2011, 12:41 AM   #149
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I've never defined fantasy as "any kind of sexual thought". In fact, I have repeatedly stated (as maycocksean points out on my behalf) that sexual thoughts that pop up in your head are not in your own control and are not a sin.
To be honest I think you've waivered a bit in your definition. And honestly that's the only thing I really have issue with.

I'm not sure it's something we're going to agree on...
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Old 05-07-2011, 01:41 AM   #150
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To be honest I think you've waivered a bit in your definition. And honestly that's the only thing I really have issue with.

I'm not sure it's something we're going to agree on...
I have said from the very beginning that I do not consider sexual thoughts that pop into your head as lust and they are not sin.
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