Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[Jive Turkey]

This is your evidence?

Where are the statistics we were giving you a bit to get together?

 

[IWasBored]

At least they weren't more book recommendations.

 

[Jive Turkey]

hahahaha

 

[deep]

I read a book about Tantric Sex
it did not have a happy ending.

 

[BVS]

So here's my original quote, with the implied grammar expanded a little bit to make clear what I was trying to say.



Okay, so the first part- women are targeted for hate speech and violence based on sex.

A quick survey of the FB memes on the link I posted and a few places can demonstrate hate speech.

Another study shows that gaming has a sexist problem - Destructoid A female-voice player receives 3 times as many negative comments as a male voice player in online gaming, many of them including slurs like slut and whore.

Zerlina Maxwell, after saying on Fox that we should focus on telling men not to rape rather than telling women not to get raped, was inundated with racist, sexist rape and death threats. A few nice examples here. Fox News Guest Receives Racist Rape And Death Threats After Arguing Guns Aren't The Solution To Rape | ThinkProgress

Sexual Threats Stifle Some Female Bloggers Female participants received 25 times as many sexually explicit and malicious messages as males.


Someone created an online game that allows you to put bruises on the face of a blogger running a kickstarter campaign.This is what online harassment looks like Links to other stuff in there too.

A stroll through the results on "online harassment women" indicates that female bloggers experience sexual harassment almost universally, with comments ranging from opinions on their fuckability or appearance to repeated threats to rape both them and their mother, and posting the woman's home address. There is a ton of info on this, mostly anecdotal but all pretty depressing.

Some interesting and bizarrely unique examples but none that support your broad and sweeping statement.

 

[jeevey]

There are two academic studies in there.

In the first, two players, one experienced and one not, played Halo online, using both male and female voices. The female voice received much higher rates of negative comments regardless of which player was actually using it. The second is a broad survey of internet comments. The methodology is good, and the studies are linked in the articles.

 

[iron yuppie]

I think maybe two separate points are getting muddled.
As far as people getting offended by a rape joke, that's fine. You're allowed to be offended. It's when people then take their personal reaction to a joke or comment and act as if it's somehow exceptional. The idea that, because they felt offended, something must be done about it, is completely self absorbed. And specifically trying to ban one particular 'brand' of joke implies that their offense is more important than anyone else's. If we're going to make anything the topic of a joke, we must make everything fair game.

Okay, that clarifies things. But what is the number of offendees that must makes themselves known before the offender faces some type of ramifications? Let's say a comedian starts throwing around racial epithets, and twenty or twenty-five people get offended. Are those people justified in calling out the comedian?

 

[BVS]

There are two academic studies in there.

In the first, two players, one experienced and one not, played Halo online, using both male and female voices. The female voice received much higher rates of negative comments regardless of which player was actually using it. The second is a broad survey of internet comments. The methodology is good, and the studies are linked in the articles.

Gamers and those that comment anonymously on YouTube videos? A real slice of humanity, right?

 

[Jive Turkey]

Okay, that clarifies things. But what is the number of offendees that must makes themselves known before the offender faces some type of ramifications? Let's say a comedian starts throwing around racial epithets, and twenty or twenty-five people get offended. Are those people justified in calling out the comedian?

The number of offendees shouldn't matter. That was another point I was trying to make. If 20 people come forward because they were offended by a rape joke, that doesn't make their case any more important that the joke about left-handed, redheaded dwarfs that only offended one person. It can't be an unpopularity contest; that is inherently unfair. That's why, when it comes to comedy, everything is on the table.
That said, there is certainly a difference between jokes and outright racism or sexism. Any functioning adult should be able to tell the two apart. I touched on that in a couple posts. There has to be a joke. A lot of the pictures being referenced here aren't even jokes. Hitler wasn't telling Jew jokes.

 

[Jive Turkey]

There are two academic studies in there.

In the first, two players, one experienced and one not, played Halo online, using both male and female voices. The female voice received much higher rates of negative comments regardless of which player was actually using it. The second is a broad survey of internet comments. The methodology is good, and the studies are linked in the articles.

You know what happens when I play Call of Duty? I get called a faggot, a ****** (even though I'm white), a bitch, etc. It should come as no surprise that someone who is immediately singled out from the predominantly male voices would attract more attention. Same goes for a person with a foreign accent in a sea of North American ones. I hear it all the time. The study is flawed because they only tested one unique voice quality, then attributed the cause to sexism. That most certainly doesn't qualify for good methodology.
It should also come as no surprise that words like 'whore' and 'slut' pop up. In every other aspect of speech, we have words relating to women and words relating to men. Why, when it comes to profanity, is this suddenly always an issue? You know what those female gamers won't get called? Dickhead, asshole, fuck face, faggot, and any other number of names more commonly associated with men.
And yes, those words are highly sexual in nature. The majority of English profanity is highly sexual in nature. How is any of this not obvious?

And as BVS pointed out, a survey of behaviour on the internet is hardly representative of normal, everyday behaviour. The language used on line and especially in gaming is more about eliciting a response than it is about any personal beliefs behind what is being said. You're being successfully trolled.

And you still haven't demonstrated how women are less protected than minorities. You haven't even tried

 

[iron yuppie]

That said, there is certainly a difference between jokes and outright racism or sexism. Any functioning adult should be able to tell the two apart. I touched on that in a couple posts. There has to be a joke. A lot of the pictures being referenced here aren't even jokes. Hitler wasn't telling Jew jokes.

So in your estimation, something cannot be simultaneously comedic and bigoted?

 

[Jive Turkey]

So in your estimation, something cannot be simultaneously comedic and bigoted?

I'm not saying that. I'm also not saying you aren't allowed to think that joke teller is an asshole. You can have a personal reaction to a joke in any way you choose. But "I found that offensive" shouldn't hold any more weight than "I found that funny".
Plus, we're talking about jokes about a topic. There can be tasteless jokes. It's the idea of banning jokes about a certain topic that I have a problem with.

 

[IWasBored]

Gamers and those that comment anonymously on YouTube videos? A real slice of humanity, right?

My favorite part was the part about how if they were good players, they didn't get harassed. No fucking way!?

 

[IWasBored]

You know what happens when I play Call of Duty? I get called a faggot, a ****** (even though I'm white), a bitch, etc. It should come as no surprise that someone who is immediately singled out from the predominantly male voices would attract more attention. Same goes for a person with a foreign accent in a sea of North American ones. I hear it all the time. The study is flawed because they only tested one unique voice quality, then attributed the cause to sexism. That most certainly doesn't qualify for good methodology.
It should also come as no surprise that words like 'whore' and 'slut' pop up. In every other aspect of speech, we have words relating to women and words relating to men. Why, when it comes to profanity, is this suddenly always an issue? You know what those female gamers won't get called? Dickhead, asshole, fuck face, faggot, and any other number of names more commonly associated with men.
And yes, those words are highly sexual in nature. The majority of English profanity is highly sexual in nature. How is any of this not obvious?

And as BVS pointed out, a survey of behaviour on the internet is hardly representative of normal, everyday behaviour. The language used on line and especially in gaming is more about eliciting a response than it is about any personal beliefs behind what is being said. You're being successfully trolled.

And you still haven't demonstrated how women are less protected than minorities. You haven't even tried

And again, if they weren't shitty players, they didn't get harassed in the survey. So, really all this research proves is that if you want the other nameless faces in other parts of the world to play nice with you, don't suck.

 

[cobl04]

I lost track with this thread, but what about stuff like this?

Louis CK - Rape - YouTube

I think this is hilarious. I really like Louis CK, he's one of the comedians pushing boundaries.

 

[The Sad Punk]

I have to agree with you there - he's joking about the complete absurdity of someone wanting to be raped, not making fun of someone for being raped. I think that's fine, even if I did feel a little uncomfortable towards the end, but that's just me. Louis CK has developed a bit of reputation as a feminist as well as a great comedian, and I think he's leading the way in showing how male comedians should deal with these matters.

Now, let me backtrack a little. I think that using rape as a punchline is completely disgusting. I think that it trivialises and makes light a torturous and often life-ruining event for millions of people, largely people of a gender that already has to deal with inequality in most other facets of society every day, in every part of the world. And yet I think that any subject can be made funny in the hands of a talented and considerate comedian. Thing is, I've never heard a funny rape joke, as they've been defined in the thread. They are lazy and pathetic and don't just offend me as a feminist and (hopefully) decent human being, but also as someone who loves comedy. Making a rape joke is a sign you've given up, you have no understanding of people, you lack imagination and rely on outdated shock values. There are so many things you can joke about in the world, you simply don't need to make fun of someone for being forced to have non-consensual sex with a criminal. It's revolting and unnecessary.

 

[jeevey]

The interesting thing about the slurs you mention, Jive, is that they are not specifically related to sex as part of your identity, and they don't imply someone else's access to your body the way slut and whore do. There's quite a lot loaded into those little words that male or gender neutral slurs do not. They make you feel vulnerable in ways the fuckface and dickhead do not.

It's true that gaming is a very sexist subculture, but internet trolling can be and is done by anyone. The anonymity of the internet allows for what's called dissociative anonymity- a security that your real identity is not known and you literally take on another one. It's the same phenomenon that allows for a huge range of surprising people to be collectors child porn. Once people start getting outed it's pretty devastating, because they really rely on that safety. Even the famous reddit troll Violentacrez was devastated when he was outed, and insisted that really he's a good guy.

 

[IWasBored]

The interesting thing about the slurs you mention, Jive, is that they are not specifically related to sex as part of your identity, and they don't imply someone else's access to your body the way slut and whore do. There's quite a lot loaded into those little words that male or gender neutral slurs do not. They make you feel vulnerable in ways the fuckface and dickhead do not.

So jive can't dictate what should offend people, but you can dictate how being called a slut vs being told "I just pounded your ass harder than your boyfriend did last night, faggot" makes other people feel, and you can assert this with definite certainty that they are not the same thing? This entire paragraph is nothing but your personal opinion, and the way being called certain words make YOU feel. It isn't necessarily true.

 

[IWasBored]

I lost track with this thread, but what about stuff like this?

Louis CK - Rape - YouTube

I think this is hilarious. I really like Louis CK, he's one of the comedians pushing boundaries.

That was actually funny. I generally find Louis CK mildly amusing at best, and massively overrated the rest of the time. But like sad punk said, rape isn't the punch line. The punch line is that wow, that girl was crazy. Not even close to the same thing as Tosh saying it would be funny if someone raped that lady who got offended. It doesn't offend me (idiotic, yes. But when it comes to trying to be offensive for the sake of being offensive, the only thing offensive is the fact that he's paid money to be what I perceive as incredibly unfunny), but I don't think anyone could say anything that would offend me.

 

[jeevey]

Going back now to the other parts of my sweeping assertions, part 2- women are targeted for violence based on sex.

There is lots and lots of male violence in the world. Guys hurt and kill each other for all sorts of reasons. But when women are victims it is very often on the basis of her sex- rape and domestic violence.

85% of domestic violence victims are women. Almost one third of female homicide victims are killed by an intimate parter, as compared to 3% of men. http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf In 70-80% of intimate partner homicides, no matter which partner was killed, the man physically abused the woman before the murder. U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics state that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and 99% of arrestees for rape are male. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOO.PDF

As for the protection women receive, that's actually the easiest part of the whole thing. In the US 23 states have hate crime laws protecting race, relgion and ethncity from hate crimes, but only 13 list gender. http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/combating-hate/state_hate_crime_laws.pdf

Gender was added to the federal list of protected groups in 2009, in the same bill that added sexual orientation and gender identity. Civil Rights Division Home Page. However, rape and sexual assault are not classified as hate crimes, even then they include group-specific slurs which would trigger a hate crime investigation if the word was kike instead of whore. Sigh.

 

[cobl04]

I'm definitely with you on this one IWB. What Tosh said was bad, although like you I wasn't offended by it. I just cannot stand him because I don't think he's funny, and that's one example of why.

Also worth thinking about - why does the amount of left-wing comedians thoroughly outweigh the right-wing ones? I actually couldn't name a right-wing comedian.

Maybe I should just stop talking, but I think he makes some great (and funny) points here as well.

Louie CK: Faggot, Cunt, ****** - YouTube

 

[cobl04]

Going back now to the other parts of my sweeping assertions, part 2- women are targeted for violence based on sex.

There is lots and lots of male violence in the world. Guys hurt and kill each other for all sorts of reasons. But when women are victims it is very often on the basis of her sex- rape and domestic violence.

85% of domestic violence victims are women. Almost one third of female homicide victims are killed by an intimate parter, as compared to 3% of men. http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf In 70-80% of intimate partner homicides, no matter which partner was killed, the man physically abused the woman before the murder. U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics state that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and 99% of arrestees for rape are male. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOO.PDF

As for the protection women receive, that's actually the easiest part of the whole thing. In the US 23 states have hate crime laws protecting race, relgion and ethncity from hate crimes, but only 13 list gender. http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/combating-hate/state_hate_crime_laws.pdf

Gender was added to the federal list of protected groups in 2009, in the same bill that added sexual orientation and gender identity. Civil Rights Division Home Page. However, rape and sexual assault are not classified as hate crimes, even then they include group-specific slurs which would trigger a hate crime investigation if the word was kike instead of whore. Sigh.

There is absolutely no doubting the fact that gender is a factor. Just yesterday my friend (a real estate agent) was telling me that a male colleague of her told another male colleague that he should lower his chair so he can better see her legs/up her skirt or something like that. The real estate industry is one that is astoundingly sexist.

A TV host over here ended up in hospital after she became the target of a disgusting, sexist 9gag/4chan attack online.

And maybe instead of having to-and-fro debates over subtleties, we should just admit there's a problem. Jeevey is not making up these facts or things out of thin air.

 

[IWasBored]

I'm definitely with you on this one IWB. What Tosh said was bad, although like you I wasn't offended by it. I just cannot stand him because I don't think he's funny, and that's one example of why.

Also worth thinking about - why does the amount of left-wing comedians thoroughly outweigh the right-wing ones? I actually couldn't name a right-wing comedian.

Maybe I should just stop talking, but I think he makes some great (and funny) points here as well.

Louie CK: Faggot, Cunt, ****** - YouTube

Because the right is inherently funny without having to slap the title comedian on it? Or maybe because there were no comedians in the bible. Have to ask Indy that one.

 

[BVS]

The interesting thing about the slurs you mention, Jive, is that they are not specifically related to sex as part of your identity, and they don't imply someone else's access to your body the way slut and whore do. There's quite a lot loaded into those little words that male or gender neutral slurs do not. They make you feel vulnerable in ways the fuckface and dickhead do not.

It's true that gaming is a very sexist subculture, but internet trolling can be and is done by anyone. The anonymity of the internet allows for what's called dissociative anonymity- a security that your real identity is not known and you literally take on another one. It's the same phenomenon that allows for a huge range of surprising people to be collectors child porn. Once people start getting outed it's pretty devastating, because they really rely on that safety. Even the famous reddit troll Violentacrez was devastated when he was outed, and insisted that really he's a good guy.

I think you're losing the plot here.

Going back now to the other parts of my sweeping assertions, part 2- women are targeted for violence based on sex.

There is lots and lots of male violence in the world. Guys hurt and kill each other for all sorts of reasons. But when women are victims it is very often on the basis of her sex- rape and domestic violence.

85% of domestic violence victims are women. Almost one third of female homicide victims are killed by an intimate parter, as compared to 3% of men. http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf In 70-80% of intimate partner homicides, no matter which partner was killed, the man physically abused the woman before the murder. U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics state that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and 99% of arrestees for rape are male. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOO.PDF

I will stand with you and argue that these are truly horrific numbers. But I'm still having a hard time with your assertion that this shows they are "targeted based on sex", especially when you're discussing domestic violence and intimate partners. This shows me we have a male aggression issue, rather than a "targeted" victim. Love, sex and relationships spark heated emotions and anger; the problem here lies in that that anger is transferred into violence. The only reason that the numbers are shockingly one-sided is due to the fact of physical size and aggression, not targeting.

As for the protection women receive, that's actually the easiest part of the whole thing. In the US 23 states have hate crime laws protecting race, relgion and ethncity from hate crimes, but only 13 list gender. http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/combating-hate/state_hate_crime_laws.pdf

Gender was added to the federal list of protected groups in 2009, in the same bill that added sexual orientation and gender identity. Civil Rights Division Home Page. However, rape and sexual assault are not classified as hate crimes, even then they include group-specific slurs which would trigger a hate crime investigation if the word was kike instead of whore. Sigh.

I think hate crimes are difficult, in fact we've had full threads dedicated to them. But I think some of what you're arguing here is blurring the lines. Rape is violent, and most would say all of rape is hate, but by the definition of a "hate crime" would all rape fall under that category? Would all sexual assault fall under that category?

 

[jeevey]

Interesting question. Not all domestic assaults are "hate crimes" because gays do experience domestic violence at similar rates to straights. You are right in that all rapes relate to dominance and control, which is why male rape seems to be concentrated in high authority cultures with intense competition for social status- prison and are the military are easy examples.

But are all male on female rapes hate crimes?

For what other reason do men rape women, other than that they feel entitled to because she is a woman? She has a hole, and it can and should be fucked. Sometimes the rapee is a proxy for the person a rapist is really mad at, sometimes she's a representative of how he feels about all women. Sometimes he's demonstrating his masculinity for other men, sometimes he's expressing his own frustration at the complexities of gender relations (what one pair of researchers has charmingly called an "alternative mating strategy" Why men want to rape | General | Times Higher Education) But the thing they all have in common is that they take sexual access to a woman's body without her consent because it is a woman's body.

And how is that different from feeling entitled to beat up a gay man because he is gay, or lynch a black man because he is black?


One thing we could use is a masculinity thread, because the common link in most rapes and other violent crimes is that they are very disproportionately committed by men. That doesn't mean that men are inherently violent, because not all men are violent, and in some cultures they are far less than in others. I think what we really have is a problem with the way we socialize men. Masculinity is tightly linked to dominance, control- the ability to force one's will on others and not be influenced by them. That's not to say all men do all those things all the time, but they face a very strong narrative about it. That's one reason why rape is so devastating for male victims- because it strikes right at their sense of being a man. Just like in Jive's Chappelle link- it's a hundred times better to let your wife think you have been intentionally fucking other women, than to let her know that you've been physically dominated and invaded by a man.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

We've had masculinity threads before, maybe if you search you could find some and a mod could unlock them if they're too old. Or just start one yourself

Maybe there could be a separate thread for all this discussion (I believe mods can split them off, it's been done here in the past), it has strayed quite a bit from the original topic and I do think the original was well worth saving and discussing. Not saying at all that this isn't

 

[jeevey]

It's interesting that people feel the things we've been discussing- gender portrayal in the media, mutual pleasure and rape culture, have no bearing on whether feminism is still relevant. To me that the fact these issues exist and that we still have to discuss whether they are important, is evidence that it is.

 

[BVS]

It's interesting that people feel the things we've been discussing- gender portrayal in the media, mutual pleasure and rape culture, have no bearing on whether feminism is still relevant. To me that the fact these issues exist and that we still have to discuss whether they are important, is evidence that it is.

Gender portrayal, absolutely relevant to this discussion.

Mutual pleasure, has not one thing to do with this topic, for the reasons that have all been discussed.

And "rape culture"? I'm not even sure I know what that is, but I honestly think that not all rape has to do with sexism. So I really think you're being too broad and trying to cast too big of a net on this one. I think most criminal psychologists would disagree with your "other than that they feel entitled to because she is a woman" statement.

 

[Pearl]

And "rape culture"? I'm not even sure I know what that is, but I honestly think that not all rape has to do with sexism. So I really think you're being too broad and trying to cast too big of a net on this one. I think most criminal psychologists would disagree with your "other than that they feel entitled to because she is a woman" statement.

Rape culture is very real. Think Steubenville. It is also a term being used more on feminist blogs and a few news outlets.

Here are some links to get you started on understanding it:

Sabrina Nelson: Slut-Shaming and Rape Culture

Rape Culture

Steubenville Rape Case: Does America Have an Unadmitted Rape Culture Problem?

Rape has a lot to do with sexism. Any man who sees women as equals and does not think women must be obligated to have sex with him, and no doesn't mean she's being coy, will almost never rape a woman. How often do you hear about rapists telling their victims once they're done, "thanks bitch!" or "you must've really wanted it".

I don't think a wide net is being casted here. There are real gender issues involving rape, and there's no way to avoid that.

 

[BVS]

Rape culture is very real. Think Steubenville. It is also a term being used more on feminist blogs and a few news outlets.

Here are some links to get you started on understanding it:

Sabrina Nelson: Slut-Shaming and Rape Culture

Rape Culture

Steubenville Rape Case: Does America Have an Unadmitted Rape Culture Problem?

I think we cheapen the severity of rape by using the word "culture", I understand the point they are trying to make, but to me none of those websites truly meet the dictionary definition of culture.

Rape has a lot to do with sexism. Any man who sees women as equals and does not think women must be obligated to have sex with him, and no doesn't mean she's being coy, will almost never rape a woman. How often do you hear about rapists telling their victims once they're done, "thanks bitch!" or "you must've really wanted it".

I don't think a wide net is being casted here. There are real gender issues involving rape, and there's no way to avoid that.

What about men who are raped? Sexism issue? Are the men not seeing their victims as equals due to their sex?