Is Feminism Still Relevant?

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Yep. It's selfish to take a stand for yourself, that's what some of us are often told. You get the message that you're not worth it, not supposed to feel like you are. Sometimes you learn the hard way and sometimes it takes way too long.

It gets demoralizing to always have the backs of others and to sometimes feel like no one has yours. That's when it's best to just have your own and be able to shrug it off.

Yes!
 
Not just selfish, frankly you're seen as a bitch too. Etc. Whatever term (s) you want to use. When men are far more often applauded for taking a stand for themselves, and sometimes for far worse behavior.

Not always is that the case, or under all circumstances. But that double standard still exists.
 
As someone who has a job in a predominantly male field I have to say that yes, feminism is still relevant and sexism is still rampant. It isn't even about equal pay, it's about the strange assumptions and rules and gender roles forced upon women in this day and age. That is not to say that men do not have gender roles forced upon them, it's just that those roles are far less restrictive.

A woman who speaks her mind is considered tactless and a "bitch". A woman who openly talks about sexuality is considered loose. There are taboo subjects and things that are considered appropriate. Many females I know don't even think twice about it and just accept the rules society have placed on us--so they don't really understand what it is like to challenge them. I've seen woman fighting against woman and sexism even between females as we seek to degrade others based on what our idea of a good woman is. "Slut" is thrown around an awful lot.

In the 21st century it still is not okay to question society's rules. But making progress in the legal system doesn't mean we have made a huge dent in society's system.
 
It feels good to have this discussion. We don't really talk about it often enough.

But making progress in the legal system doesn't mean we have made a huge dent in society's system.

I think there is an unconscious bias toward men even among many women who consider themselves feminists.

In my family, my father is a feminist; my mother is not.:shrug:
 
Speaking about sexism in the workplace, there's still a belief that if a woman is a boss, she is automatically a bitch and is impossible to work with. Sure, there are some female bosses who get big egos when promoted to a managment position, but so do men. The difference is, a man with a big ego is simply a jerk. But a woman with one is not only bitchy, but is not a real woman at all.
 
I realize that as a man, my perspective on this may be skewed. But I wonder if extremism is the issue here. There are extremes on any ideological issue, and those extreme voices tend to dominate and define conversations. As a result, the "bra burners" of the 70s became the defining characteristic of the feminism movement (as least in the eyes of the media), while (I would argue) more important but perhaps more moderate voices that argued for pay parity in the workplace or maternity leave were drowned out or ignored.

Just wondering.
 
nathan1977 said:
I realize that as a man, my perspective on this may be skewed. But I wonder if extremism is the issue here. There are extremes on any ideological issue, and those extreme voices tend to dominate and define conversations. As a result, the "bra burners" of the 70s became the defining characteristic of the feminism movement (as least in the eyes of the media), while (I would argue) more important but perhaps more moderate voices that argued for pay parity in the workplace or maternity leave were drowned out or ignored.

Just wondering.

I think most "movements" get overshadowed and hurt by extremism: religions, as mentioned before PETA, certain environmental groups, and most recently the Republican Party. Extremists get more attention and often cross the lines of common sense, law and/or morality therefore skew reality. Extremists will always hurt the cause because you end up having to battle the ignorant that oppose and the extremists who apparently share your cause.
 
I realize that as a man, my perspective on this may be skewed. But I wonder if extremism is the issue here. There are extremes on any ideological issue, and those extreme voices tend to dominate and define conversations. As a result, the "bra burners" of the 70s became the defining characteristic of the feminism movement (as least in the eyes of the media), while (I would argue) more important but perhaps more moderate voices that argued for pay parity in the workplace or maternity leave were drowned out or ignored.

Just wondering.

Sure. A lot of that was not helpful. Although to be honest, I don't think the bra burners, although an easy image and titillating (pun intended) to the media were particularly off-putting. We were pretty much burning everything (from draft cards to flags to whatever) in the 70's. It was the protest du jour.

I think among certain segments, there was a perceived hostility to men (and in some cases, it was genuine), and a broader unwillingness to give the dignity of choice to stay-at-home mothers. Not many protest movements want people to stray far from the stated line. There was a certain radicalism that was fun to discuss in women's study classes, but not particularly practical.

But it got attention. It made people draw sides. It got some things done.
Just not enough.
 
What's wrong with bra burning? Try wearing one-you'd want to burn it too :wink:

I think extremism was probably necessary at first, in order to get anyone to pay attention.
 
What's wrong with bra burning? Try wearing one-you'd want to burn it too :wink:

I think extremism was probably necessary at first, in order to get anyone to pay attention.

Some people did pay attention and saw what they thought were total nutcases ,and ignored and scorned feminism, even those who simply advocated equality to men.
 
There's no doubt that you have to shout incredibly loud to be heard -- but the problem is when the loud shouters become the perception of the movement. So what I hear from younger voices is not really that they're not feminist -- they're just not bra-burning man-haters. I seem to remember Drew Barrymore saying something similar about ten years ago.
 
nathan1977 said:
There's no doubt that you have to shout incredibly loud to be heard -- but the problem is when the loud shouters become the perception of the movement. So what I hear from younger voices is not really that they're not feminist -- they're just not bra-burning man-haters. I seem to remember Drew Barrymore saying something similar about ten years ago.

I just don't think all women should be held responsible for that and/or suffer as a result. By "suffer" I mean being perceived as a certain stereotype that isn't accurate, or being labeled a man hater or worse because you hold certain views. Kind of like saying all Republicans are the same as ultra conservative Republicans, or as the rape knowledge challenged men of recent history .. just to give one example among many possible ones.


I have no issue with those bra burning women/ so called man haters. I think I owe them quite a bit, I thank them for what they did, and I admire them.

Feminists come in all forms. The old image has just morphed into what all women can be in 2012. A stay at home Mom can be a feminist, a CEO can be one. I think that's how it should be, those are the choices that all that work made possible.
 
I think extremism was probably necessary at first, in order to get anyone to pay attention.

But let's look at all other groups when applying this line thinking... Don't you think PETA said the same thing? And don't you think it's hurt the cause?

I just don't think all women should be held responsible for that and/or suffer as a result. By "suffer" I mean being perceived as a certain stereotype that isn't accurate, or being labeled a man hater or worse because you hold certain views.

I think we all agree about this, but we're saying that no matter if it's fair or not, this is what happens. I mean look no further than this board and see how warped some posters knowledge of the Muslim religion is based on extremism.
 
nathan1977 said:
There's no doubt that you have to shout incredibly loud to be heard -- but the problem is when the loud shouters become the perception of the movement. So what I hear from younger voices is not really that they're not feminist -- they're just not bra-burning man-haters. I seem to remember Drew Barrymore saying something similar about ten years ago.

But all this talk of the bra-burning only makes the point about conservative propaganda all the more relevant, as the bra-burning never actually happened in any of the places that original critics of feminism claimed. The "extremist" element within feminism is largely an invention of the right. So when young women say they are not feminists, a lot of times they are relying on a fabricated depiction.
 
I was just going to point that out as well, iron yuppie. I'd heard in recent years how that image was often exaggerated. Which wouldn't surprise me-people get confronted with something that upsets and challenges the status quo, they'll try and exaggerate how crazy the movement is as a means of fighting back against this challenge.

I've seen woman fighting against woman and sexism even between females as we seek to degrade others based on what our idea of a good woman is. "Slut" is thrown around an awful lot.

Yeah, this is something that is REALLY bothering me. I'm sick of turning on the TV and seeing commercials for shows where women are getting into smackdown fights all the time, or hearing stories of women attacking each other over a guy, or that sort of thing. First off, because fistfights are always obnoxious and stupid in and of themselves, and people will always look really pathetic when they get caught up in that crap. But second, because seeing women pitting themselves against each other is just...depressing. We're much better than stupid "catfight" behavior, women.

And I don't like hearing women calling each other "sluts" or "whores" or whatnot, either. I hear women complain all the time about how degrading it is to hear men use those words against women, and I fully agree, it is very degrading.

But then we turn around and use those same words on each other. What? Why? I don't get it. I don't like those words. I wouldn't want anyone calling me them. So I'm not going to call other people those words.
 
Speaking about sexism in the workplace, there's still a belief that if a woman is a boss, she is automatically a bitch and is impossible to work with. Sure, there are some female bosses who get big egos when promoted to a managment position, but so do men. The difference is, a man with a big ego is simply a jerk. But a woman with one is not only bitchy, but is not a real woman at all.

I think this is a way too generalized to really be a fair comment. I'm sure some people more people than there should be believe that, and it really is unfortunate if that's been your experience, but I really don't think it's fair to make that broad a statement as if it's just the way it is, period.
 
I think this is a way too generalized to really be a fair comment. I'm sure some people more people than there should be believe that, and it really is unfortunate if that's been your experience, but I really don't think it's fair to make that broad a statement as if it's just the way it is, period.

Sorry, making generalizations again :doh:
 
But let's look at all other groups when applying this line thinking... Don't you think PETA said the same thing? And don't you think it's hurt the cause?

Absolutely. It undermines the ability to be taken seriously
 
But all this talk of the bra-burning only makes the point about conservative propaganda all the more relevant, as the bra-burning never actually happened in any of the places that original critics of feminism claimed. The "extremist" element within feminism is largely an invention of the right. So when young women say they are not feminists, a lot of times they are relying on a fabricated depiction.

This is interesting, iYup. I had never heard this before. moar infoz plz
 
There's no doubt that you have to shout incredibly loud to be heard -- but the problem is when the loud shouters become the perception of the movement. So what I hear from younger voices is not really that they're not feminist -- they're just not bra-burning man-haters. I seem to remember Drew Barrymore saying something similar about ten years ago.

With all due respect (and I do respect you) that was 40 years ago. I don't think many women look to NOW, even feminists like me who were coming of age then, for any guidance. Perhaps looking back to them with a nod to its history, for its contribution.

I like the ring of feminist, but, hey, maybe the younger women can be womanists or Non-Bra-Burning, Non-Man-Hating Double X Chromosomists or something. But they will need to find their own path, their own voice.

We're not loud shouters anymore and haven't been for decades. Hell, we're barely whisperers.
 
Well, I've really only heard that from Rush Limbaugh and those who rely on him for their perception of reality and their language. Rush Limbaugh is a very good propagandist. He understands that he who controls language controls thought, but he's still fringe. Well known fringe, but fringe nonetheless.

Of course, this is the man who loves the women's movement, "especially from behind." I'm hard pressed to look to him for any serious analysis.
 
I don't know. I pay no mind to Rush Limbaugh and he gets relatively little coverage over here, but I've certainly heard the work thrown around every now and again
 
Interesting. But my point had less to do with that specific term than it did with the prevailing perception
 
Sure he was to an extent. But really the fact the the perception is as it may be is irrelevant. The problems persist and the journey continues. It's a battle worth fighting, like any marginalized segment of the population that may have come across as angry at some point. It's not my method, but I'm not going to apologize for it. Just improve on it. As far as the thread is concerned, I think the question is what now, not what then.
 
Sure he was to an extent. But really the fact the the perception is as it may be is irrelevant. The problems persist and the journey continues. It's a battle worth fighting, like any marginalized segment of the population that may have come across as angry at some point. It's not my method, but I'm not going to apologize for it. Just improve on it. As far as the thread is concerned, I think the question is what now, not what then.

Well said

I thought that was the question too. It's like the gay rights movement, and still having the perception that it is like it was when it first started. Both groups were angry, and I don't see what's wrong with that. Back then it might have been threatening to some people, don't see why it would be now. In my view equality for women and for gay people benefits everyone. How those groups have gone about trying to achieve that in the past is what it is. Whispering never really got anyone anywhere. When you're talking about all these different marginalized groups are you going to say that they all should have been nicer, less strident, more deferential? Don't see how you don't have to say all.
 
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