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Old 12-16-2013, 04:12 PM   #826
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We may be equal for the law, but it takes a couple more generations to change the attitude of people towards things. See racism, that took a long time for people not to immediately think less of a black person. Same thing is going on with women, while we've come quite far, we're not quite there yet at the point of acceptance. Even in our fancy western society.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:29 PM   #827
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Because if this is a societal issue - we need to look at it with a much bigger lens. We need to look at actual data. And perhaps we may find out there are some general differences between the sexes and these differences cause us to be interested in different things. It's not right or wrong - just simple biology.
I'm not sure you are going to get the data you are looking for, other than easily measurable things like number of women executives, game devs etc. It won't tell you why there are less. The only thing you are likely to get is women telling you their experiences, question is how many women does it take to say the same thing before you recognise it as an issue? Anyway what you are looking for would be biological determinism. Biology may play a role but it is how it interacts with the environment, the culture, which would determine those interests.

I read a recent story about Paul Dini the guy behind the late and great Batman The Animated Series cartoon and much of the DC Universe cartoons. He had a new cartoon on the Cartoon Network and was told by the execs to stop focusing on the female characters because they wanted to sell more toys to boys, 'Girl's don't buy toys' was what was quoted to him. Even though they were attracting greater viewing numbers with girls and their parents, they were told the girls had to be secondary to the boy characters. They ended up cancelling the show.

Some cultural influences begin at a very young age and are much the worse for it.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:58 PM   #828
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Regarding the cartoon that seems to have sparked a lot of debate: I do think that it does a good job of illustrating the multitude of often-contradictory views about how women should behave, and how those views can often be expressed with very nasty language. It's hard for me to really imagine that sort of pressure, because I've never had to deal with it, but I can't imagine that it would be enjoyable. Generally speaking, I'm allowed to just be myself without receiving nasty criticism for how closely that aligns with some view about my gender. Women, I think, very often don't get that luxury.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:05 PM   #829
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I'm allowed to just be myself without receiving nasty criticism for how closely that aligns with some view about my gender. Women, I think, very often don't get that luxury.
Do you think if walked into an office wearing lipstick and heels you might receive some "nasty criticism"? From both genders?

I'm not saying it's right - but it would certainly happen.

I suspect you don't feel the pressure because your gender "role" comes more naturally to you? Maybe? Perhaps you don't worry about which actions are more masculine or feminine - they're just actions.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:12 PM   #830
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Do you think if walked into an office wearing lipstick and heels you might receive some "nasty criticism"? From both genders?
I would presumably get roughly the same reaction as a woman would if she wore a men's suit. That's different. But if I'm a workaholic? Then I'm super productive, and nobody questions (or at least fewer people question) me about how I handle having a family at the same time. If I'm a stay-at-home-dad, then people think it's wonderful that I'm sacrificing a career to let my wife do that. If I'm a woman choosing either, I am going to be criticized by a fair number of loud people from one perspective or another, even if the same people won't criticize me for both. There is a double standard here.

Also, I'm not exactly the most super-masculine guy; there are many, many male stereotypes that I don't fit, and I'm generally able to live free of criticism from both genders for it.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:05 PM   #831
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But if I'm a workaholic? Then I'm super productive, and nobody questions (or at least fewer people question) me about how I handle having a family at the same time.
It's a challenge for both genders to be both a career go-getter and awesome parent. But I would agree that women have it a bit harsher because of the criticism of other women.

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If I'm a stay-at-home-dad, then people think it's wonderful that I'm sacrificing a career to let my wife do that.
No - they assume you're unemployed and can't find a job.

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If I'm a woman choosing either, I am going to be criticized by a fair number of loud people from one perspective or another, even if the same people won't criticize me for both. There is a double standard here.
This goes back to my earlier point - that I hear the career centered women in my life complaining about the unfair criticism/judgement of the stay at home "Super Moms"

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Also, I'm not exactly the most super-masculine guy; there are many, many male stereotypes that I don't fit, and I'm generally able to live free of criticism from both genders for it.
Do you think that women can't stray at all from these stereotypes? Aren't these changing on a regular basis? Do you think each gender has their self assigned "guardians" that love to point out the strays? It seems that both men and women should expect some reaction when they step outside of the norm - and the further they step out, the harsher the response will be.
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:38 PM   #832
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Yeah they shouldn't say mean things, yet kids still do. Bullying still happens everywhere, and victims are both male and female. Though I have to admit that bullying is rather different with the genders. The males were rude and mean to me, yet the girls are less physical, they're more excluding you from events, it's the more bitchy thing to do.

I can empathize with men that don't bully me, yes. In fact, I used to have more male friends than female until recently. Due to my nature I am usually considered one of the guys.

Yeah, true. I used to play Pokemon online(yeah yeah, I know) on servers, and as soon as guys found out I was female you'd have half of them trying to cyber you, and the other half claimgin you're lying and just doing it for the attention(calling you an attentionwhore if you will). It was quite baffling.
Luckily it does not occur with all games, as I am an avid gamer. Don't play COD or WOW though. It's not all women that get badly treated there, the insults flying around to less skilled players are horrible.

There's even a saying that "women on the internet don't exist".

Guess the gamer guys feel threatened that it's not just guys gaming anymore. I really do not understand why else you'd treat others like that. Then again I don't understand the unnecessary insult and rudeness towards other players in general either.
I played wow for a few years and moved to Star Wars the old republic when it came out two years ago. Now, in my experience, there are plenty of female players. Probably plenty of players I've run into have been female that I haven't been aware of. Yet, as a female player, I'm just as guilty as anyone in assuming a few key things:

1) all characters are male until proven otherwise
2) most female players are mediocre healers, poor dps, and never EVER roll tanks
3) I don't necessarily subscribe to the opinion that all female players only play to pick up guys--that's ridiculous--but an inordinate number of the ones I have met roll healers to keep their boyfriends/husbands alive...see #2
4) they're too busy collecting pets and doing pointless achievements to learn to play their classes and that's why they suck

It's a pretty good example of people within their own category or group of people making biased assessments. Given the fact that I've always played tank classes (I'm main tank with my guild, and tank on two other characters in pugs all the time, and MY healer is actually a guy), never liked pet collecting or any sort of cosmetic in game type stuff (yet known plenty of guys who've done that stuff as well), you'd think I'd be more inclined to dispute some of these generalizations than perpetuate them. But instead, when I do run into a good player who happens to be female, my first thought is "hey, it's a girl, and she's actually good! You never see that!" I know they exist, it's just that I run into so many others that fit the stereotypes I listed that I come off as being just as obnoxious as the 12 year olds spamming general chat "boobs or we don't believe you." And whenever it's just assumed that I'm a guy (I play a tank, I don't suck, all my toons are males, I don't sound very girly in any of the voice chat programs, and I swear too much), it's just easier to run with it. Probably because I don't want to get lumped into the category of awful female players who use the wrong stats on their gear cos the gear looks prettier (which sadly, I've run into).
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:18 PM   #833
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What will it take to feel equal? Even if you are already equal before the law? Is it ever possible to feel equal? For example - should we do away with men and women only sports (only one gender - equal tryouts)? Would that help or hurt?
I feel like maybe you haven't been listening to what I've said. Patriarchy is a system that posits a gender binary with the male as the norm, the base model, and women and the female as other, a secondary variation. Equality under the law is only a tiny fraction of what it takes to redress the constant, pervasive othering. It's clear from your posts that you've done very little empathetic imagining of what it must be like to be othered, especially if you can't even see that women are more harshly punished for gender transgression than men are. It's so basic to anyone who has experienced it, and a little observation and questioning should go a long way towards figuring it out.

What would real equality look like? An absence of gender specific sex shaming might be a good start, a world where no madonna/whore dichotomy exists, where women are not judged on their sexual history differently from men and women never face questioning about how they should have prevented their own rape might be a good start. If women's bodies were presumed to be normal, healthy and good instead of problematic, ugly and out of control would be another. If women were not trained from infancy to focus on physical beauty and to pursue it to the exclusion of other important human concerns and yet still always feel that they are failing to be pretty enough, that would be great. If the world of work did not presume that women are worse workers than men and withold flex time and promotions based on that assumption, that would be good. If historically female work like teaching and caring for the elderly were not low status and low pay, that would be good too. If we did not financially penalize women for caring for children, that would be nice. If we could remove the stigma that assigns unpaid domestic work predominantly to women, even better.

Are you getting what I'm driving at here? The inequalities that women face are social, sexual, financial, and emotional--they are persistent and pervasive. Oftentimes they can pass as a constellation of individual choices, ie "women just choose to work in traditionally female professions because they like it" but really the causes of these phenomena are complex and interrelated. The patterns are repeated too often to simply be individual choice. Real equality is not just about equal access under the law, though that would be a good start. Real equality would be far involved and far reaching. It would affect everything.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:55 PM   #834
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I played wow for a few years and moved to Star Wars the old republic when it came out two years ago. Now, in my experience, there are plenty of female players. Probably plenty of players I've run into have been female that I haven't been aware of. Yet, as a female player, I'm just as guilty as anyone in assuming a few key things:

1) all characters are male until proven otherwise
2) most female players are mediocre healers, poor dps, and never EVER roll tanks
3) I don't necessarily subscribe to the opinion that all female players only play to pick up guys--that's ridiculous--but an inordinate number of the ones I have met roll healers to keep their boyfriends/husbands alive...see #2
4) they're too busy collecting pets and doing pointless achievements to learn to play their classes and that's why they suck

It's a pretty good example of people within their own category or group of people making biased assessments. Given the fact that I've always played tank classes (I'm main tank with my guild, and tank on two other characters in pugs all the time, and MY healer is actually a guy), never liked pet collecting or any sort of cosmetic in game type stuff (yet known plenty of guys who've done that stuff as well), you'd think I'd be more inclined to dispute some of these generalizations than perpetuate them. But instead, when I do run into a good player who happens to be female, my first thought is "hey, it's a girl, and she's actually good! You never see that!" I know they exist, it's just that I run into so many others that fit the stereotypes I listed that I come off as being just as obnoxious as the 12 year olds spamming general chat "boobs or we don't believe you." And whenever it's just assumed that I'm a guy (I play a tank, I don't suck, all my toons are males, I don't sound very girly in any of the voice chat programs, and I swear too much), it's just easier to run with it. Probably because I don't want to get lumped into the category of awful female players who use the wrong stats on their gear cos the gear looks prettier (which sadly, I've run into).
Very interesting post.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:01 PM   #835
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I feel like maybe you haven't been listening to what I've said. Patriarchy is a system that posits a gender binary with the male as the norm, the base model, and women and the female as other, a secondary variation. Equality under the law is only a tiny fraction of what it takes to redress the constant, pervasive othering. It's clear from your posts that you've done very little empathetic imagining of what it must be like to be othered, especially if you can't even see that women are more harshly punished for gender transgression than men are. It's so basic to anyone who has experienced it, and a little observation and questioning should go a long way towards figuring it out.

What would real equality look like? An absence of gender specific sex shaming might be a good start, a world where no madonna/whore dichotomy exists, where women are not judged on their sexual history differently from men and women never face questioning about how they should have prevented their own rape might be a good start. If women's bodies were presumed to be normal, healthy and good instead of problematic, ugly and out of control would be another. If women were not trained from infancy to focus on physical beauty and to pursue it to the exclusion of other important human concerns and yet still always feel that they are failing to be pretty enough, that would be great. If the world of work did not presume that women are worse workers than men and withold flex time and promotions based on that assumption, that would be good. If historically female work like teaching and caring for the elderly were not low status and low pay, that would be good too. If we did not financially penalize women for caring for children, that would be nice. If we could remove the stigma that assigns unpaid domestic work predominantly to women, even better.

Are you getting what I'm driving at here? The inequalities that women face are social, sexual, financial, and emotional--they are persistent and pervasive. Oftentimes they can pass as a constellation of individual choices, ie "women just choose to work in traditionally female professions because they like it" but really the causes of these phenomena are complex and interrelated. The patterns are repeated too often to simply be individual choice. Real equality is not just about equal access under the law, though that would be a good start. Real equality would be far involved and far reaching. It would affect everything.
Thank you for the response. I will have to spend some time with this. I'm a little confused by the "othered" statements (it seems obvious there are differences between men and women - but that doesn't mean that gender is #1 and the other is #2). I hope the goal is not to erase gender lines, because on a selfish level - I like being a man and don't want to give that up.

But I will read over this a few more times and post back.
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:53 AM   #836
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"Other" is often perceived as lesser---not just different.

Of course, there are differences between the sexes (though not as hard-drawn as traditionalists might expect). Of course, there are horrible and stupid women (and horrible and stupid men). Very few feminists that I would listen to would canonize women to sainthood. But I would no more point to a sub-segment of obnoxious feminism or other bad behavior of women as representative of womanhood any more than I would point to Westboro Baptist as representative of Christianity.

I think (and hope she will correct me if I am wrong) that jeevey's frustration with feminism 101 and going into the same territory over and over again is that it stymies any further progress on the discussion and marginalizes it to the point of tedium for the people it most affects--kind of like any discussion about something you care about that just gets stuck at the same point over and over again. I'm looking for a gifted class. At least an intermediate one.

I don't worry to much about explaining feminism to men. Some will understand. Some won't see the whole picture. And sometimes we do a piss poor job of talking about it.
But for the most part, I'm more interested in talking to other women about the subject, to compare notes and goals, to recognize the signs of soft sexism, to be aware of it. The blatant sexism is, well, blatant.

I'm not jumping on anybody whenever they exhibit soft sexism. I have better things to do and God knows, I've been guilty of it myself--sometimes toward men, sometimes toward women. But I'm aware of patterns and how destructive they can be. I'm not looking to convert men to OUR way of thinking--but I don't want women internalizing the views. I don't want them to only see themselves through somebody else's eyes. What a limiting filter. I like when women break barriers.

And I am looking forward to the day when women get more interesting perjorative terms than bitch, witch, stupid, unattractive, emotional and manipulative. How tedious. We can run the gamut of good and bad, just like men. We can be exciting bad.

History, and women, have always taken men into account. One of the few threads on feminism shouldn't have to worry about it. We're big girls. You're big boys.
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:06 AM   #837
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The way I see it, men get to be men. Women get to be women. And both get to be full, imaginative, powerful, adventurous, intelligent, respected and creative human beings who get to decide for themselves what themselves are.

And judged by about the same criteria as possible, on their own, with a minimum of preconceptions interfering. Cause, you know, most of the stuff we judge people on -- character, intelligence, compassion, etc. -- aren't sex specific unless we make them so.
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Old 12-17-2013, 09:22 AM   #838
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Thank you for the response. I will have to spend some time with this. I'm a little confused by the "othered" statements (it seems obvious there are differences between men and women - but that doesn't mean that gender is #1 and the other is #2). I hope the goal is not to erase gender lines, because on a selfish level - I like being a man and don't want to give that up.

But I will read over this a few more times and post back.
I don't understand how you can read that post and still think feminism is about erasing gender lines altogether. There won't be a single gender - or a genderless society - once feminism makes its goals. Just a more relaxed take on what it means to be a woman, and what it means to be a man.

I also think jeevey laid out what feminism is all about very well, and I really would like to know why a light bulb hasn't gone off in you yet.

I'll be waiting for your response.
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:19 AM   #839
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I played wow for a few years and moved to Star Wars the old republic when it came out two years ago. Now, in my experience, there are plenty of female players. Probably plenty of players I've run into have been female that I haven't been aware of. Yet, as a female player, I'm just as guilty as anyone in assuming a few key things:

1) all characters are male until proven otherwise
2) most female players are mediocre healers, poor dps, and never EVER roll tanks
3) I don't necessarily subscribe to the opinion that all female players only play to pick up guys--that's ridiculous--but an inordinate number of the ones I have met roll healers to keep their boyfriends/husbands alive...see #2
4) they're too busy collecting pets and doing pointless achievements to learn to play their classes and that's why they suck

It's a pretty good example of people within their own category or group of people making biased assessments. Given the fact that I've always played tank classes (I'm main tank with my guild, and tank on two other characters in pugs all the time, and MY healer is actually a guy), never liked pet collecting or any sort of cosmetic in game type stuff (yet known plenty of guys who've done that stuff as well), you'd think I'd be more inclined to dispute some of these generalizations than perpetuate them. But instead, when I do run into a good player who happens to be female, my first thought is "hey, it's a girl, and she's actually good! You never see that!" I know they exist, it's just that I run into so many others that fit the stereotypes I listed that I come off as being just as obnoxious as the 12 year olds spamming general chat "boobs or we don't believe you." And whenever it's just assumed that I'm a guy (I play a tank, I don't suck, all my toons are males, I don't sound very girly in any of the voice chat programs, and I swear too much), it's just easier to run with it. Probably because I don't want to get lumped into the category of awful female players who use the wrong stats on their gear cos the gear looks prettier (which sadly, I've run into).
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree with a lot of it actually.

Yes, a lot of females game differently,they are more focussed on the fun aspect rather than getting strong and everything normal gamers look for(I specifically don't say men, as there are plenty of females who actually do this). But that's a different class, as you said, it's the girls who start playing to support their boyfriend so they get some attention. In a way they ruined the image of female gamers, because I know plenty who are actually good players, just as eager as the guys to get to that highest level. In competitive pokemon you had the difference as well. The girls playing with 'fun teams' with their favourites, and there was the group that actually seriously played with the good guys. There's a reason why random shitty games like Bejeweled or Candy Crush are so huge. So many women 'game' on Facebook. Funnily enough I also know quite a lot of guys who do those games, and they don't play any other videogames at all. So I wouldn't necessarily consider them gamers.

I get what you mean about just giving up and pretending to be male. I did that for a long time, it just is easier. Saves you having to explain it every fucking time. And yeah, people automatically expect less of you. I was always asked who made my teams for me, because I obviously coulndn't have come up with those strategies myself. Yeah a girl just beat your arse, sure as hell must've been a guy who came up with that!

Then again, this leaves me one more thought. I think there is a major motivational difference between how guys game and how girls game. Last night would be a good example.

With four mates, we did a DOTA2 game, person versus person, 5v5. We had a bit of bad luck, our opponents were very good, and our fifth player was a random guy who claimed Mid right away before even saying hi. Mid is the middle lane, which farms best gold and experience as you solo it and the other two lanes are 2v2. Then he proceeded to pick a character that is not suitable for mid, but for the jungle. I told him that, was told to shut up, he was mid. While we had 2 characters in the group far more suitable for mid. We did our thing, we started losing as the opposing group had great teamwork and were very skilled. Eh, you win some, you lose some. We tried to save what we could, while the fifth player dude started shouting at us, that we were noobs and we should save him, while he ran head first into five enemies suiciding. Five seconds later he had the opportunity to save me when I got ambushed, and he just stood watching me die. Right before we were about to lose, he disconnected after insulting us one last time calling us a shitty team of shitty players.

That just baffles me. And it keeps on baffling me every time it happens.

Why are there so many guys who act like this online? Why is it so bloody important that they are the middle of attention, that they win and be applauded? Why can't they just game for fun? Sure, I would've liked to win that match as well, but it was quite obvious quite soon that the other team was much better. So I enjoyed playing, I learned some new item sets for a character I play myself as well, so we congratulated them and enjoyed the game. Why are there so many guys who cannot just lose?

It's like there's more in play than just entertainment there.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:47 AM   #840
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I feel like maybe you haven't been listening to what I've said. Patriarchy is a system that posits a gender binary with the male as the norm, the base model, and women and the female as other, a secondary variation. Equality under the law is only a tiny fraction of what it takes to redress the constant, pervasive othering.
I think there are many things we can address beyond the law - and for the most part, it seems to me you "might" be asking for something impossible in the same way Anitram pointed out that it might be impossible for us to agree on the beginning of life. There will always be the obvious physical differences between men and women - while they often get downplayed, they are very real and obvious. And they are most real and obvious to children. The boys are simply bigger, stronger, faster - and this will translate into some forms of discrimination, especially when it comes to "playing". But there is no cause for outright bullying, and I think we as a society are doing much better at stopping it.

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It's clear from your posts that you've done very little empathetic imagining of what it must be like to be othered, especially if you can't even see that women are more harshly punished for gender transgression than men are. It's so basic to anyone who has experienced it, and a little observation and questioning should go a long way towards figuring it out.
We've all been "othered" at some point in our life. Now - I can probably assume you're going to say, "but not as a woman." Of which I respond - of course not. All I can say is that I try my best to treat everyone equally in my life. Everyone deserves respect and kindness. When I'm hiring a position - I take the most qualified candidate. Some are men - some are women - some are what the world might consider "unattractive"...

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What would real equality look like? An absence of gender specific sex shaming might be a good start, a world where no madonna/whore dichotomy exists, where women are not judged on their sexual history differently from men and women never face questioning about how they should have prevented their own rape might be a good start.
Aren't both sexes turned off by a promiscuous partner?

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If women's bodies were presumed to be normal, healthy and good instead of problematic, ugly and out of control would be another.
Are you asserting men think this? If you're referring to menstrual cycle - yes, that's about the only thing I hear men complain about the biology of women.

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If women were not trained from infancy to focus on physical beauty and to pursue it to the exclusion of other important human concerns and yet still always feel that they are failing to be pretty enough, that would be great.
I agree, that's a tough one. I've always told that to my stepdaughter. That she was pretty enough and never needed makeup or excessive clothing to be attractive. But peer pressure for her is tough. She's still fairly confident and can doesn't obsess over her appearance, but her peers (mostly other females) are brutal at times.

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Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
If the world of work did not presume that women are worse workers than men and withold flex time and promotions based on that assumption, that would be good.
That is certainly changing. Especially for newer companies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
If historically female work like teaching and caring for the elderly were not low status and low pay, that would be good too. If we did not financially penalize women for caring for children, that would be nice. If we could remove the stigma that assigns unpaid domestic work predominantly to women, even better.
I 100% agree with you here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
Are you getting what I'm driving at here? The inequalities that women face are social, sexual, financial, and emotional--they are persistent and pervasive. Oftentimes they can pass as a constellation of individual choices, ie "women just choose to work in traditionally female professions because they like it" but really the causes of these phenomena are complex and interrelated. The patterns are repeated too often to simply be individual choice. Real equality is not just about equal access under the law, though that would be a good start. Real equality would be far involved and far reaching. It would affect everything.
I do hear what you're saying - and if I saw everything in the world stacked up against me, I guess I would also be upset. It all starts with treating people with respect and kindness. If one does that - then so many other things fall into place.
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