Is Feminism Still Relevant? - Page 55 - U2 Feedback

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Old 12-16-2013, 02:34 PM   #811
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I've been following this website for a while and I hope to god it's just a bunch of trolls who run it,
After reading that article and looking at a few links - I would say "trolls" is a safe bet.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:50 PM   #812
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Just on the fake geek girl alone, it's painfully apparent guys often see women as invaders to what they consider their male only culture.
Any such attitude is weak minded. I won't argue that.

I did play WoW for many years (my wife played too). Yes, I came across some rudeness - but that was mostly directed toward "noobs" than anything else.

An arrogant jerk will say anything they think will be hurtful. Everyone annoys them for one reason or another.

However, (SUBJECTIVE EXAMPLE WARNING) I've know several of my IT co-workers that married female gamers. Some of them actually met playing games online. I don't perceive a general disgust toward female gamers - in fact, it was something the males would brag about. In the same way that some men would say how awesome it is that their wife was "into sports."
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:57 PM   #813
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Don't you feel you learn something when you're thinking is challenged? Or - if you're thinking isn't challenged, at least to hear a different point of view?

I do like reddit for some topics (baseball, futurology, technology...), but I prefer Interference for social and political discussions. One the main reasons I like it here is because of the occasional debate.

I think Anitram did an excellent job in her discussion on abortion. I learned something there. And I'm learning from you. As I'm learning from Pearl and Galeongirl. I don't have to agree with you to learn from you.

I'm sure if you asked the women in my life if I were a bit chauvinistic - they would probably say "yes," at least a little. However - it's not a one or a zero. Meaning, I don't mistreat women and sincerely believe in equal treatment before the law. But I'm "old-fashioned" in that I still open the doors for women and I still stand up when a woman enters the room - lessons taught to me by grandmother.

We all have tendencies to categorize and define things in the most efficient way possible. We've evolved with that ability. The key to wisdom, of course, is to identify which thoughts are merely striving for efficiency vs. when they are actually pursuing/attaining truth.
AEON, I don't get the impression you are learning anything. It's like whenever you see the word feminism, or anything pertaining to it, including a simple cartoon, you get into attacking mode and treat it like its all man-hating and man-bashing. That very cartoon that you are so upset about lays out what feminism really is, and yet you failed to register that.

I do think you are threatened by anything related to feminism. Turning each discussion, however small, into a male-oriented discussion and denouncing any dismay we women have toward sexism as propaganda just shows this.

If you really want to learn, you need to put yourself in our shoes. Start with that if you really want to learn, not complain.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:08 PM   #814
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That very cartoon that you are so upset about lays out what feminism really is, and yet you failed to register that.
Yes, it fails to register because I think it misrepresents male thinking (with a few exceptions).

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I do think you are threatened by anything related to feminism.
This phrase gets repeated often - what do you mean by threatened? There is nothing I can think of that a feminist through feminism could take from me.

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Turning each discussion, however small, into a male-oriented discussion and denouncing any dismay we women have toward sexism as propaganda just shows this.
I only claimed the cartoon was propaganda - which it is.

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Wikipedia - Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:21 PM   #815
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Yes, it fails to register because I think it misrepresents male thinking (with a few exceptions).

This phrase gets repeated often - what do you mean by threatened? There is nothing I can think of that a feminist through feminism could take from me.

I only claimed the cartoon was propaganda - which it is.
I get the impression that you, and some other men, see feminism as an attack on masculinity. Meaning, when a woman asserts her right to be respected, socially and legally, many men think she's got some nerve to do that. Some men despise feminists because we dare to say that men aren't as great as they think they are, and they have hurt us knowingly or unknowingly. It also forces a man to rethink his place in the world. This sort of mindset is both subconscious and conscious, depending on the guy.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:23 PM   #816
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Aside from the fact that I wish it was, there isn't much on the return of kings site to indicate that it's satire. The fact that all the commenters take it quite seriously makes me think that it's not.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:28 PM   #817
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Any such attitude is weak minded. I won't argue that.

I did play WoW for many years (my wife played too). Yes, I came across some rudeness - but that was mostly directed toward "noobs" than anything else.

An arrogant jerk will say anything they think will be hurtful. Everyone annoys them for one reason or another.

However, (SUBJECTIVE EXAMPLE WARNING) I've know several of my IT co-workers that married female gamers. Some of them actually met playing games online. I don't perceive a general disgust toward female gamers - in fact, it was something the males would brag about. In the same way that some men would say how awesome it is that their wife was "into sports."
No one is stating that it is all men that are anti women in the gaming community. We tend to surround ourselves with like-minded people, hence i'm not prone to hang out with other guys gamers or not who are going to be openly sexist to women.

Do you not wonder why though your experience as a bloke is different to the women's here? (for that matter us other blokes as well). Is their experience invalid because it doesn't match yours? Does your experience of this matter more than there's? Are you the target of sexism in general in society? I wouldn't say you are hence one of the reasons of your differing experience.

Are you saying that their experience of this is wrong? Is it that they have a persecution complex? They're lying? Exaggerating for attention? Promoting a feminist agenda to the detriment of men? I'm not saying that is how your thinking, but I would ask you why you come across as so strongly against women's opinions on their own experiences...Is it not more likely they are sharing a common experience of how they are regularly treated?

Anyway a couple of good articles from a games website I follow, it's relatively big over here in the UK. RockPaperShotgun often tackles the social issues in gaming as well as just gaming itself.

First one is on the #1reasonwhy campaign on why there weren't more women in the game industry. How female devs are treated, how journalists are treated etc.

#1ReasonWhy We Are All Responsible | Rock, Paper, Shotgun

Another one on general sexism in gaming.

Misogyny, Sexism and why RPS isn't Shutting Up

Lastly the recent experience of a female dev trying to release a game based around depression and the comments she faced on that ranging from women don't know what depression is, they can't relate, how can she complain she would never be with someone who had real depression etc.

Female Game Developers Can't Even Submit A Game To Greenlight Without Receiving Harassment - Indie Statik

Interesting reads anyway, small disclaimer I am part of a RockPaperShotgun guilld in Guild Wars 2
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:32 PM   #818
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Aside from the fact that I wish it was, there isn't much on the return of kings site to indicate that it's satire. The fact that all the commenters take it quite seriously makes me think that it's not.
It's question of when does trolling cross the line. Say racist/communist comments in an article about Obama, yeah trolling. Creating a website and continually maintaining and updating it, is a bit more sinister.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:35 PM   #819
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Yes, it fails to register because I think it misrepresents male thinking (with a few exceptions).
That's because feminism is not primarily about men. It's primarily an attempt to critique and redress a structural imbalance of power that's embedded in our society. Your interest in continually recentering the discussion around men insures that you will not gain any real insight into the experience of women as affected by patriarchy, or ever have a part in correcting the imbalances that exist around you. It seems like every time a woman has something to say about her experience as a woman you immediately reframe the discussion to the male point of view rather than just, you know, listening and understanding.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:43 PM   #820
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It's question of when does trolling cross the line. Say racist/communist comments in an article about Obama, yeah trolling. Creating a website and continually maintaining and updating it, is a bit more sinister.
I'm not sure that the word troll is very helpful. It indicates that the views expressed are made for effect, not because the troll honestly believes it. But the journalism I've seen around internet sexism trolls seems to indicate that they both believe it AND are saying it for effect. I think satire is a better metric. Is this piece asserting an offensive or controversial view in order to obliquely criticize or subvert that view? If not then I just call it sexist assholery.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:44 PM   #821
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It's question of when does trolling cross the line. Say racist/communist comments in an article about Obama, yeah trolling. Creating a website and continually maintaining and updating it, is a bit more sinister.
I certainly agree this site is distasteful, wrong, shameful, immoral, and created out of hatred. For anyone to take to the time and energy to create and maintain such a thing is horrible. There's nothing inside of me that would defend such a thing.

It's also propaganda, but much darker than the cartoon that was posted.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:56 PM   #822
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Your interest in continually recentering the discussion around men insures that you will not gain any real insight into the experience of women as affected by patriarchy, or ever have a part in correcting the imbalances that exist around you.
Fair enough. As someone that loves history I see the way things were - and how they are today. And from my perspective - we've come a long, long way - even during my own generation. You say there are these imbalances, but it seems the data suggests these are basically gone (or quickly disappearing). Of course, I'm speaking of Western countries only. I know there is still much work to do in other parts of the globe.

What will it take to feel equal? Even if you are already equal before the law? Is it ever possible to feel equal? For example - should we do away with men and women only sports (only one gender - equal tryouts)? Would that help or hurt?
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:00 PM   #823
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What will it take to feel equal? Even if you are already equal before the law? Is it ever possible to feel equal? For example - should we do away with men and women only sports (only one gender - equal tryouts)? Would that help or hurt?
Are you seriously saying that if men and women are equal in the eyes of the law, then it doesn't matter what happens socially? In that regard, racism that is enforced by social attitudes doesn't matter because all races are legally equal.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:06 PM   #824
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Do you not wonder why though your experience as a bloke is different to the women's here? (for that matter us other blokes as well).
Of course it is different. I just want to see more evidence it is an overall trend vs a few guys here and there.

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Is their experience invalid because it doesn't match yours? Does your experience of this matter more than there's?
No - they are both valid (and equally invalid because of their subjective nature)

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I'm not saying that is how your thinking, but I would ask you why you come across as so strongly against women's opinions on their own experiences...
Because if this is a societal issue - we need to look at it with a much bigger lens. We need to look at actual data. And perhaps we may find out there are some general differences between the sexes and these differences cause us to be interested in different things. It's not right or wrong - just simple biology.

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Is it not more likely they are sharing a common experience of how they are regularly treated?
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Anyway a couple of good articles from a games website I follow, it's relatively big over here in the UK. RockPaperShotgun often tackles the social issues in gaming as well as just gaming itself.

First one is on the #1reasonwhy campaign on why there weren't more women in the game industry. How female devs are treated, how journalists are treated etc.

#1ReasonWhy We Are All Responsible | Rock, Paper, Shotgun

Another one on general sexism in gaming.

Misogyny, Sexism and why RPS isn't Shutting Up

Lastly the recent experience of a female dev trying to release a game based around depression and the comments she faced on that ranging from women don't know what depression is, they can't relate, how can she complain she would never be with someone who had real depression etc.

Female Game Developers Can't Even Submit A Game To Greenlight Without Receiving Harassment - Indie Statik

Interesting reads anyway, small disclaimer I am part of a RockPaperShotgun guilld in Guild Wars 2
I'll have to read these later. If there is discrimination - it is illegal and should be prosecuted.

BTW - I played the first Guild Wars - then we had a child. My gaming time is very limited these days.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:09 PM   #825
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Are you seriously saying that if men and women are equal in the eyes of the law, then it doesn't matter what happens socially? In that regard, racism that is enforced by social attitudes doesn't matter because all races are legally equal.
No, I'm asking what else is there beside legal enforcement. You can force boys to play with girls - but you can't force them to like it.
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