Is Feminism Still Relevant? - Page 47 - U2 Feedback

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Old 12-05-2013, 07:35 AM   #691
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Unless there is force - a woman has absolute control of this event at all times (with the exception of Mary about 33 BC).

It's one of the more obvious cause and effect behaviors in the animal kingdom.
There are so many, many reasons why a woman may not have complete autonomy over when she has sex and whether she has adequate access to reliable birth control every time, both relational, economic and social. This comment shows a pretty significant grasp of the complexity of reproductive justice.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:13 AM   #692
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And I'm saying that legally, they DO control when they do and do not get pregnant.
We do? Our bodies have a way of shutting themselves down during consensual and non-consensual sex?

You're making it sound like women have no choice but to be incubators. Abortion allows for that not to happen. Also, when it comes to pregnancy, two people are involved: the mother and the child, and they are not always on the same page.

Also, to be honest, just because a man's wife has a career does not mean he can't hold sexist views. There is more to women's rights than careers.

I sense a fear and disdain toward feminists in your posts. Just the way you sarcastically said "heroes" earlier says it all.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:44 AM   #693
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until birth?

If you'd like to discuss the tiny fraction of late term abortions that are almost always done after the discovery of severe fetal deformities, we can do that. But the vast majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester.

I think we'd all agree that the fewer abortions the better, and comprehensive sex education along with easy access to birth control and emergency contraception is the best way to go about that.

Do you want every child to be a wanted child?
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:04 AM   #694
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As a note both about reproductive justice and later term abortion, here's an article.

The GOP’s Late-Term Abortion Strategy Is Backfiring - The Daily Beast
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Diana Greene Foster and Katrina Kimport are professors in the Department of Obstetrics, Gynecology and Reproductive Sciences in the School of Medicine at the University of California in San Francisco. Between 2008 and 2010, Foster and Kimport studied the cases of 272 women who had received an abortion at or after 20 weeks of gestation, as well as of 169 women who received first-trimester abortions. These women were interviewed just one week after their abortions and asked a variety of questions including what led to the delay in their medical care....


The study found that young, low-income women are disproportionately more likely to seek abortions at or after 20 weeks. That’s partly because of the compounding circumstances young low-income women are more likely to face. Many in the study were either raising children alone, were depressed or using drugs or were experiencing domestic violence or tension. Half of the women having later-term abortions were unemployed, compared with just one-third of women having first-trimester procedures.


But the barriers to accessing abortion services weren’t limited to the conditions of these women’s lives but the context of medical access in their communities. Foster and Kimport found that first-trimester and later-term abortion seekers ranked roughly the same in terms of delays due to “not knowing about the pregnancy” or “trouble deciding about the abortion." But there were four barriers to abortion services that affected late-term abortion seekers twice as much as those who had first-term procedures:
1. Not knowing where to go for an abortion
2. Difficulty getting to the abortion facility
3. Raising money for procedure and related costs
4. Difficulty securing insurance coverage.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:28 AM   #695
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If you'd like to discuss the tiny fraction of late term abortions that are almost always done after the discovery of severe fetal deformities, we can do that. But the vast majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester.

I think we'd all agree that the fewer abortions the better, and comprehensive sex education along with easy access to birth control and emergency contraception is the best way to go about that.

Do you want every child to be a wanted child?
I am basically saying that we should let science determine when human life begins - and make it illegal to terminate that life (inside or outside the womb). If science says 22 weeks - then it's 22 weeks. If science says it's at the point of conception - then it's at the point of conception.

If feminist do not accept the science of when human life begins - then they've become no better than the religious fundamentalist who claim "divine command" for their reasoning.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:30 AM   #696
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There are so many, many reasons why a woman may not have complete autonomy over when she has sex and whether she has adequate access to reliable birth control every time, both relational, economic and social. This comment shows a pretty significant grasp of the complexity of reproductive justice.
I have already agreed that when women are forced to have sex against their will - it is wrong.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:31 AM   #697
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It isn't as if "science" is a person.

Determining when life begins is dependent on your definition of "life". "Science" can't provide you with an answer until that definition is settled. And that definition is not going to be agreed upon by anyone.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:54 AM   #698
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I am basically saying that we should let science determine when human life begins - and make it illegal to terminate that life (inside or outside the womb). If science says 22 weeks - then it's 22 weeks. If science says it's at the point of conception - then it's at the point of conception. If feminist do not accept the science of when human life begins - then they've become no better than the religious fundamentalist who claim "divine command" for their reasoning.
Many women, and their male partners, choose abortion due to not being emotionally and financially ready to raise a kid. It is something often agonized over and not taken lightly. Many who go through it see it as a sad and unfortunate decision. I admit that I wish people in that situation would choose adoption, because if you don't want it someone else may. It sounds like fair deal between the child and the mother, and even the father if he's the kind to care and not abandon the mother
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:03 AM   #699
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We do? Our bodies have a way of shutting themselves down during consensual and non-consensual sex?
Can you please clarify?

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Also, when it comes to pregnancy, two people are involved: the mother and the child, and they are not always on the same page.
I hear you saying that during the pregnancy there is another person involved, the child. And that these two persons sometimes are not "on the same page" - and because of this, the mother has the right to end the other person. By that logic, my wife still has the right to kill my 8 year old child if they disagree.

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Also, to be honest, just because a man's wife has a career does not mean he can't hold sexist views. There is more to women's rights than careers.
I agree. I just don't think abortion is one of your "rights."

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I sense a fear and disdain toward feminists in your posts.
There was a rumor once that the working title to Achtung Baby was "Fear of Women." As a male human being, I'm sure that no matter how informed and enlightened I may become - I will occasionally have a viewpoint that will expose some "fear" of the unknown. Even Stephen Hawking, one of the smartest people of the last 100 years, conceded that women are a "complete mystery." However, despite my occasional slip into Achtung-Hawking territory, removing the abortion debate from the larger Equal Rights discussion seems logical.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:17 AM   #700
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I have already agreed that when women are forced to have sex against their will - it is wrong.
It's not just rape. What about when women don't have access to health insurance or money for contraceptives? What about condom breakage? What about women who become pregnant while actually using the pill or IUD? (It does happen.) What about women with controlling or fundamentalist partners who oppose birth control? Or partners who aren't willing to wait while diaphragm or cervical cap gets settled? What about women who lack reliable transportation to get to drs appointments to get contraceptives? What about women who are drug addicted or mentally ill and can't manage a method reliably? All of these women--lots of them-- are not raped, but they do really do not have "absolute control" over when they have sex or when they become pregnant. This abortion in cases of rape only narrative just ignores the complexity of women's lives.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:23 AM   #701
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It isn't as if "science" is a person.

Determining when life begins is dependent on your definition of "life". "Science" can't provide you with an answer until that definition is settled. And that definition is not going to be agreed upon by anyone.
Science is based on logic. If we disregard science - then we disregard logic. If we disregard logic - we are left with nothing more than superstitions and intuitions. If we rely on superstitions and intuitions - then a "pro-choice" perspective is just as invalid as a "pro-life" perspective.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:41 AM   #702
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It's not just rape. What about when women don't have access to health insurance or money for contraceptives? What about condom breakage? What about women who become pregnant while actually using the pill or IUD? (It does happen.) What about women with controlling or fundamentalist partners who oppose birth control? Or partners who aren't willing to wait while diaphragm or cervical cap gets settled? What about women who lack reliable transportation to get to drs appointments to get contraceptives? What about women who are drug addicted or mentally ill and can't manage a method reliably? All of these women--lots of them-- are not raped, but they do really do not have "absolute control" over when they have sex or when they become pregnant. This abortion in cases of rape only narrative just ignores the complexity of women's lives.
In every one of these cases (with the exception of the mentally ill example) the woman does in fact understand that one possible consequence to sexual intercourse is pregnancy. In these cases - the woman has a choice to have sex. As long as a woman continues to chose not to have sex, she will not become pregnant (unless there is divine intervention). And as long as my son chooses not to have sex, he will not become a father.

I know we live in a world that tries to remove all unwanted consequences for the choices we make. However, sometimes it is not morally or legally possible to do so - and this can be seen as unfair. But this is true about many things in biology. I think it's 'unfair' that I wasn't born looking like George Clooney or that I can't play basketball like Michael Jordan or understand quantum mechanics like Sheldon Cooper.

This is a biological fact: heterosexual sex may lead to pregnancy. Whether this is fair or not is left to the realm of mere opinion, but biology doesn't care about our opinion.

And if biologist DO come to an agreement that human life begins at conception - would you still be in favor of abortion?
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:46 AM   #703
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Science is based on logic. If we disregard science - then we disregard logic. If we disregard logic - we are left with nothing more than superstitions and intuitions. If we rely on superstitions and intuitions - then a "pro-choice" perspective is just as invalid as a "pro-life" perspective.
OK, but that doesn't really provide any solution here.

How is "science" supposed to determine when life begins if the various factions of people do not agree on what life means?

When does life begin? You are NOT considered to be medically pregnant at conception, but only after implantation and only after your beta HCG level rises above a certain threshold. So conception seems like a poor choice, do we go with implantation? Or do we go with when there is a discernible heartbeat? Or when the fetus becomes viable?

These are questions that "science" cannot answer. Science can tell you when conception occurs (within 12 hours of ovulation), when implantation occurs (6-10 days after conception), when beta HCG is over 25-50 (a couple of days after implantation), when the heart beat is typically heard on ultrasound (7 weeks) or when a fetus is viable outside the womb (21-22 weeks). But science can't determine which of these is when life begins.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:04 PM   #704
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Can you please clarify?
Jeevey summed it up well in her post

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I hear you saying that during the pregnancy there is another person involved, the child. And that these two persons sometimes are not "on the same page" - and because of this, the mother has the right to end the other person. By that logic, my wife still has the right to kill my 8 year old child if they disagree.
The mother is involved in this because she carries the child and may have difficulties during the pregnancy. And saying a woman can kill an 8 year old by that logic, is actually not logical at all.

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I agree. I just don't think abortion is one of your "rights."
It is when you look at what we can risk in our health, finances, etc. We are not walking incubators. We are humans.

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There was a rumor once that the working title to Achtung Baby was "Fear of Women." As a male human being, I'm sure that no matter how informed and enlightened I may become - I will occasionally have a viewpoint that will expose some "fear" of the unknown. Even Stephen Hawking, one of the smartest people of the last 100 years, conceded that women are a "complete mystery." However, despite my occasional slip into Achtung-Hawking territory, removing the abortion debate from the larger Equal Rights discussion seems logical.
I appreciate that you admit to a fear some men are afraid to admit. Women have a fear of men because of their physical strength, violent tempers and sometimes their better stance in society (in some places in the world, women have much to fear with that). I've heard men fear the power of our sexuality because it can warp their minds. I get the sense some men are terrified when women insist they can control their own sex lives because that means those men can't see a woman's body as territory, and control who she sleeps with or how many guys she's been with - which I suspect plays a role in male competition on who gets what. I take it some men see women as a sort of playing field where they compete to get a woman, and if that woman refuses to go along with the game and sets up her own rules, it turns men's world upside down.

I know I probably went into very sensitive territory right there, but that is my theory.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:05 PM   #705
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But science can't determine which of these is when life begins.
Fair enough. If this is true - then we are left with nothing but subjective opinions. And these opinions are held in minds that are influenced by everything from a Woman's Studies professor to a Roman Catholic priest.

I'm still holding out hope for a scientific answer.

I think that most rational people do accept there is such a thing as a "human organism" - and that this "human organism" has a beginning and has rights once it has begun.

Does a scientist not know when something is a "live organism" vs when something is "not-alive organism?" Does a scientist not know what organisms are "human" and what organisms are "not-human?"
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