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Old 08-20-2013, 04:12 PM   #496
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Even if I benefit from the culture, how does that make me a perpetrator? Should I say 'no' to anything that might benefit me on the chance it might be because I'm a man? What about a man who is an advocate for women's rights, yet still has no choice but to benefit from the way society is structured? Is he still an unwilling sexist?
It makes you a beneficiary. It also makes you more likely to unintentionally be sexist simply because it's very hard for you to be aware of it. Personally I have trouble with the word perpetrator is this usage.
perpetrator- a person who commits an immoral, criminal or evil act. I think using it in this case is a sort passive-aggressive defense where you are challenging people to see you either as evil or not sexist at all, when the truth is that a most sexism, while wrong, is simply an unconscious, accidental result of one's socialization.




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I don't think it's fair to say "every woman". I can guarantee you if you asked any girl I've dated if they at any time worried about that in the months getting to know me, the answer would be no
Sorry, but no. Every woman in our society is taught from the time she is a little girl that she may be targeted by a rapist some day. Any time you have met a woman for the first time and she considered spending time with you in anything other that a crowded public space, chances are that she checked in with herself about if she felt you are safe. It doesn't have anything to do with how nice or safe you actually are. That's just what women have to do in our society, and that's just the price that all men pay because some men rape. It's unfair to the non-rapists, but that's just the way it is.



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I'm happy to listen to the other side, but I won't "be quiet". Nothing productive has ever come from a one way street
Here's the thing. Men do not experience sexism as women do- they can't. It's literally impossible for a man to know what it's like to experience sexism as a woman unless he switches his gender. Talking about it is a conversation, but experiential knowing can really only come from a woman. So if men want find out what it's like, they have to listen.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:19 PM   #497
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It also makes you more likely to unintentionally be sexist simply because it's very hard for you to be aware of it
. I think there are plenty of men that understand if you treat everyone with respect, dignity, and kindness - then you're doing about the best thing you can possibly do across the board.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:22 PM   #498
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So if men want find out what it's like, they have to listen.
But you just said it was impossible unless we get a sex change.


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It's literally impossible for a man to know what it's like to experience sexism as a woman unless he switches his gender.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:23 PM   #499
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Are you arguing that both men and women should be driven to despair equally? Or that nobody should ever feel "shame" for having multiple sexual partners in a public setting? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
I think you misread my response to that article.

Here it is again:

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Why aren't the two boys involved being hospitalized with a nervous breakdown? Why are they getting pats on the back for getting head? Why aren't they respecting their own privacy?

Here is this poor girl who's being slut-shamed worldwide and is now ruined mentally and emotionally from it. Of course, she'll also be remembered for this, while those two guys can carry on like nothing happened.

This is an epidemic. A girl in Canada committed suicide over allegations she was either raped or had sex with multiple guys at a party. Where I used to live, a girl committed suicide at the train station I used to use over the slut-shaming she experienced after a party. Even her so-called best friend deserted her.

This is proof that the double-standard is bullshit and it is killing people who should not be driven to despair.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:25 PM   #500
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Are you arguing that both men and women should be driven to despair equally? Or that nobody should ever feel "shame" for having multiple sexual partners in a public setting? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Do you think a man would be as shamed in this situation as a woman?

It always bothered me, especially now looking back at being a teenager, how boys would do everything they could to get as far as they could with a girl, and then turn around and rake her over the coals for giving them what they wanted.

It's something I find very upsetting about heterosexuality, especially among the young.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:32 PM   #501
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Do you think a man would be as shamed in this situation as a woman?

It always bothered me, especially now looking back at being a teenager, how boys would do everything they could to get as far as they could with a girl, and then turn around and rake her over the coals for giving them what they wanted.

It's something I find very upsetting about heterosexuality, especially among the young.
Thank you, Irvine.

For lack of a better term, it is total bullshit that boys are allowed to be boys while if a girl acts the same way, she is immediately a whore who should be ostracized from society. The double-standard baffles me.

It is really society's way of shaming a woman for owning her sexuality.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:36 PM   #502
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But you just said it was impossible unless we get a sex change.
I said it's impossible for men to experience sexism as women do. And it is.

If I want to know what it's like to do something I've never done, I have to ask someone who has. It would be silly for me to say, "No, that's not what skydiving is like." I would have to listen to skydivers tell about skydiving, and then use my imagination and my empathy to picture what that experience is like, and then check in with the skydivers to see if I'm getting the right impression. And someday with good observation and listening I may have a pretty good picture of what skydiving is like. But I would never really know by experience what it's like until I did it myself.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:45 PM   #503
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(As a quick example, most men have never worried that a woman they'd like to get to know may rape them, but every woman has to.)
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Sorry, but no. Every woman in our society is taught from the time she is a little girl that she may be targeted by a rapist some day.


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Here's the thing. Men do not experience sexism as women do- they can't. It's literally impossible for a man to know what it's like to experience sexism as a woman unless he switches his gender.
You've made some pretty ridiculously over the top statements during your stint here in interference but I think these top them all.

I've learned that very few absolutes if any exist in society, yet you proceed under some very assuming one almost on a regular basis. I find you are sometime too quick to label someone or something sexist and that can often do more harm than good when it comes to getting people to understand your point.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:51 PM   #504
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You've made some pretty ridiculously over the top statements during your stint here in interference but I think these top them all.

I've learned that very few absolutes if any exist in society, yet you proceed under some very assuming one almost on a regular basis. I find you are sometime too quick to label someone or something sexist and that can often do more harm than good when it comes to getting people to understand your point.
Jeevey may do that, but her statement that every woman is aware she may be the target of rape someday is accurate. I find it impossible for any woman to not have that cross their mind ever in her life.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:52 PM   #505
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It makes you a beneficiary. It also makes you more likely to unintentionally be sexist simply because it's very hard for you to be aware of it. Personally I have trouble with the word perpetrator is this usage.
But let's say I'm not unintentionally sexist since there is no evidence in my life to suggest I am. I'm merely a 'beneficiary'. How does it help the situation at all to continually point out that I'm a beneficiary? How do you cope with being a beneficiary of being white? Of being straight? Of living in the USA? Of not being born into poverty? Of not being born with any outward mental deficiencies? Of being born without any physical handicaps? Do these things make you an unintentional racist, homophobe, xenophobe, classist, ableist? Or are you just an individual making your way through a world filled with isms in which you're in no way promoting or perpetuating?



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Sorry, but no. Every woman in our society is taught from the time she is a little girl that she may be targeted by a rapist some day. Any time you have met a woman for the first time and she considered spending time with you in anything other that a crowded public space, chances are that she checked in with herself about if she felt you are safe. It doesn't have anything to do with how nice or safe you actually are. That's just what women have to do in our society, and that's just the price that all men pay because some men rape. It's unfair to the non-rapists, but that's just the way it is.
No, I'm sorry, but no. You're simply wrong here. I'd be more than happy to ask my current girlfriend about this. You're taking your own feelings and experiences and projecting them on every other woman. Am I doubting the fact that more than likely, every woman has at multiple points thought about the possibility of being raped? Or at some point (probably multiple points) been afraid to walk home at night for fear of rape being a real possibility? of course not. But to say that every woman at some time has thought that every man might at some point rape her is simply untrue fear mongering.


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Here's the thing. Men do not experience sexism as women do- they can't. It's literally impossible for a man to know what it's like to experience sexism as a woman unless he switches his gender. Talking about it is a conversation, but experiential knowing can really only come from a woman. So if men want find out what it's like, they have to listen.
I have empathy. There isn't a single human emotion that you've experienced that I haven't experienced to the same degree. You don't have a monopoly on that. I'm able to listen, to put myself in the shoes of someone in a position I've never been in, to relate that to an event in my life, and to take all that and speak to that person on equal terms. I have felt shame, embarrassment, fear, discrimination, judgement, belittlement. You don't get the free pass of "well, you just don't understand" as if it's a trump card of some sort.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:57 PM   #506
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Jeevey may do that, but her statement that every woman is aware she may be the target of rape someday is accurate. I find it impossible for any woman to not have that cross their mind ever in her life.
I know plenty of women, right or wrong, that have never had it cross their mind.
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:00 PM   #507
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You've made some pretty ridiculously over the top statements during your stint here in interference but I think these top them all.

I've learned that very few absolutes if any exist in society, yet you proceed under some very assuming one almost on a regular basis. I find you are sometime too quick to label someone or something sexist and that can often do more harm than good when it comes to getting people to understand your point.



Haven't seen you around for a bit. Welcome back
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:01 PM   #508
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Thanks
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:02 PM   #509
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I think you misread my response to that article.

Here it is again:
Yes, there is a double-standard and I agree that after fifty plus years of feminism, we may not be making progress in this area. Perhaps we need to listen to young men as well - and really to understand this line of thinking.
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:03 PM   #510
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Jeevey may do that, but her statement that every woman is aware she may be the target of rape someday is accurate. I find it impossible for any woman to not have that cross their mind ever in her life.
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I know plenty of women, right or wrong, that have never had it cross their mind.
The thing about jeevey's statement that was completely over the top was assuming every woman has thought she might be raped by every man she's ever met. And I think that's what BVS was addressing.

But I don't think it's outlandish to think that probably every women has thought about the possibility of being raped. I've thought about the possibility of being murdered. I've walked down some sketchy ass streets at night where it became a thought more forefront in my mind. So in that, I think it's only natural
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