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Old 08-15-2013, 02:47 PM   #451
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and research will show that comprehensive sex education is better at this than abstinence education.
Hasn't the US public education system been doing this for the last 30 or 40 years? Even when I was in HS in the 80's, there was little mention of abstinence as a valid choice. It was pretty much assumed everyone was either having sex - or would soon have sex.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:01 PM   #452
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and research will show that comprehensive sex education is better at this than abstinence education.

the same could be said for parenting.

teens who sneak around and view sex as an impulsive, forbidden thing like drinking and drugs are much more likely to end up pregnant and/or with an STD.
I agree but I don't necessarily see it as an either/or proposition.

My parents certainly emphasized to us that they would prefer that we wait, not necessarily until marriage (though they probably would have but accepted the reality around them) and yet at the same time, my Mom had no issue taking me to the family doctor and paying for my birth control pills when I was 19. So I think that it is possible for parents to raise their children with the view that sex when you are emotionally immature, which isn't the same age/stage for everyone, is not the best idea. That sex when you are drunk and unable to really consent, is not the best idea. That sex which makes you sad afterwards, is not the best idea. Etc, etc. But those same parents can impart upon that teenager knowledge about fertility, reproduction so that the teenager is, at a minimum, informed enough to procure their own birth control, or more optimally, feel comfortable enough with the parents to discuss with them, have them provide access to a medical professional and so on.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:46 PM   #453
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While I'm not totally comfortable with the ideas expressed in the dutch study I have to admit there's a lot of sense in it. Certainly it seems like the worst sexual troubles kids get into occur in a vaccum of adult help and communication. I can see how that level of openness could help with a lot of things.

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Please check back to this comment when that day comes...
I often here this attitude- that you'll discover you don't want your kids to have sex as soon as it becomes a real possibility. My oldest child is an early adolescent, and I can feel that day getting close. We know a bunch of boys that I think will probably be delightful first partners in a few years. But the first time she really took a shine to someone, it was an absolutely beautiful, charming, lovable boy whose dad I know is an abusive alcoholic and has had some pretty atrocious relationship modeling. I was terrified of their connection not because they might touch each other, but because she might fall in love with someone with abusive tendencies and not recognize them. I would much, much rather have her feel totally able to talk to me about the person who she's interested in, than to feel like she's got something to hide physically and so can't tell me about the power dynamics because I might find out. The thought of her having sex too young doesn't make me want to puke nearly as much as the thought of her in an emotionally manipulative relationship.

It's interesting that one reason the Dutch study cites that accepting teen sex can be good is that it promotes monogamy. I honestly have mixed feelings about teen monogamy. It's not that I think running around and serial screwing is great. But I grew up in a rural religious culture where it was common for teens to develop a relationship that was essentially like being married, and I don't think it was super. It looked a lot like the kids owned each other, to be honest. It's so natural to be interested in many different people especially when you're young and it's all brand new, and yet the rules were very specific that once you make a contract to go out with someone you're doing something very, very wrong to be interested in someone else. Very often they'd have a first or second boyfriend at 15 and literally marry the same person after a few years together. It was quite territorial, and it made me uncomfortable.

I guess I just don't see monogamy as an independent value of its own like kindness or honesty. What I'd like to do is teach my kids honesty, good communication, ethical treatment of others and safety. Those things can be present in relationships of any duration or kind.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:49 PM   #454
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Hasn't the US public education system been doing this for the last 30 or 40 years? Even when I was in HS in the 80's, there was little mention of abstinence as a valid choice. It was pretty much assumed everyone was either having sex - or would soon have sex.
What the US has been doing is called risk-reduction sex ed. In other words, "It's best that you don't have sex but we know you will, so here's not not to get yourself killed." It's still pretty sex negative and not at all trusting of young people. This topic might deserve its own thread, but there's a developing model called pleasure-based sex ed that is very, very different. In fact, I'll just put up the article in a new thread rather than linking it here.
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:02 PM   #455
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Hasn't the US public education system been doing this for the last 30 or 40 years? Even when I was in HS in the 80's, there was little mention of abstinence as a valid choice. It was pretty much assumed everyone was either having sex - or would soon have sex.
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What the US has been doing is called risk-reduction sex ed. In other words, "It's best that you don't have sex but we know you will, so here's not not to get yourself killed." It's still pretty sex negative and not at all trusting of young people. This topic might deserve its own thread, but there's a developing model called pleasure-based sex ed that is very, very different. In fact, I'll just put up the article in a new thread rather than linking it here.
A lot of states, particularly Texas, have abstinence-only programs, which is behind the spike in teen pregnancy rates in those places.

I agree that having a sex-positive attitude is the best road to sexual responsibility.
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:13 PM   #456
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Hasn't the US public education system been doing this for the last 30 or 40 years? Even when I was in HS in the 80's, there was little mention of abstinence as a valid choice. It was pretty much assumed everyone was either having sex - or would soon have sex.

no.

compare rates of STDs and pregnancy in states like Texas to states like Massachusetts.

also, teen pregnancy nationwide is at a 30 year low or something. kids are having less sex and safer sex than in the 1980s.
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:15 PM   #457
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It's interesting that one reason the Dutch study cites that accepting teen sex can be good is that it promotes monogamy. I honestly have mixed feelings about teen monogamy. It's not that I think running around and serial screwing is great. But I grew up in a rural religious culture where it was common for teens to develop a relationship that was essentially like being married, and I don't think it was super. It looked a lot like the kids owned each other, to be honest. It's so natural to be interested in many different people especially when you're young and it's all brand new, and yet the rules were very specific that once you make a contract to go out with someone you're doing something very, very wrong to be interested in someone else. Very often they'd have a first or second boyfriend at 15 and literally marry the same person after a few years together. It was quite territorial, and it made me uncomfortable.

I guess I just don't see monogamy as an independent value of its own like kindness or honesty. What I'd like to do is teach my kids honesty, good communication, ethical treatment of others and safety. Those things can be present in relationships of any duration or kind.

all very interesting observations. i remember couples who were virtually "married" in high school and college, and i think it comes at a cost of personal development to some degree.
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:21 PM   #458
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Oh, totally. I didn't even want to get into that, but I saw it too, for sure.
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Old 08-15-2013, 08:02 PM   #459
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no.

compare rates of STDs and pregnancy in states like Texas to states like Massachusetts.
Well, doesn't Texas also have a HUGE illegal/recent immigrant population? This must skew the statistics somewhat.

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also, teen pregnancy nationwide is at a 30 year low or something. kids are having less sex and safer sex than in the 1980s.
That's a good thing, right?
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:22 PM   #460
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Well, doesn't Texas also have a HUGE illegal/recent immigrant population? This must skew the statistics somewhat.
Holy shit. Did you really just say that?
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:30 PM   #461
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Holy shit. Did you really just say that?
What's so wrong about saying that immigrants have a higher birthrate? Take a breath please. You seem like a cat ready to pounce...

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Despite the recent decline, foreign-born mothers continue to give birth to a disproportionate share of the nation’s newborns, as they have for at least the past two decades.
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:33 PM   #462
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You seem to be attributing Texas' higher rates of STDs and teen pregnancy (which I think is what Irvine was referring to, since we've been talking specifically about teen sex for the last few pages) to their population of undocumented immigrants. Is that not the case?
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:53 PM   #463
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You seem to be attributing Texas' higher rates of STDs and teen pregnancy (which I think is what Irvine was referring to, since we've been talking specifically about teen sex for the last few pages) to their population of undocumented immigrants. Is that not the case?
I'm confused too, AEON. It looks like you totally changed the subject.
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Old 08-15-2013, 10:20 PM   #464
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I'm confused too, AEON. It looks like you totally changed the subject.
No - I was referring to Irvine's comparison of the birthrates between Texas and Mass. My point is this is not comparing apples to apples.
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Old 08-15-2013, 10:36 PM   #465
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I'm pretty sure the rates would still skew heavily in favor of Mass if you removed immigrants from the equation.
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