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Old 08-15-2013, 11:38 AM   #436
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Here's my take on this discussion since I'm late to it:

I like how the father in Irvine's article admits his daughter's body is not his to control or "protect". It is creepy that girls' virginity is prized in some parts of this country, and it is the father's duty to make sure she is pure on her wedding night. Her body is not his, she is not his property or territory. There is something incestuous about that mindset.

As for AEON, I don't think he's lost in fantasy world that some seem to imply. I think he is a little misguided when it comes to the reality of sex. It is asking too much to expect men and women to remain virgins until their wedding night - especially when people are marrying later or not marrying at all for various reasons.

I also think it is asking too much for someone to refrain from sex until they graduate from college, and not because of hormones. Sex is a natural way of being human and a natural thing to do in a relationship. To put any kind of shame on wanting to explore sexuality is stunting a person's growth and sense of self, and that is not healthy at all.

Furthermore, I don't understand why some people see sexual activity in black and white. Its like, either you are an aimless, promiscuous person or a responsible adult who is about to get married. There are plenty of ambitious, self-respecting people who have satisfying sex lives outside of a serious relationship. It is unfair to look down at them if they don't fulfill any sort of criteria for someone to have a healthy attitude toward sex.

Yes, teens and adults can be irresponsible when it comes to sex. But trying to shame and control sexuality is far from the answer. I really think we should face and accept the reality about sexuality (ie, some people enjoy casual hook-ups and are not suicidal) before we get all preachy on each other.

Finally, when I become a mother, I will not be upset if my son or daughter wants to explore sex. I will focus on instilling good self-esteem in them early on so they would make wise choices once the teenage years hit. But I won't be freaking out about the possibility of a revolving door of sex partners when they are 16. That happens as a result of lousy parenting, not foolish teenage minds. If that occurs, then I failed as a parent.
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Old 08-15-2013, 11:43 AM   #437
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My instincts cry ludicrous, but I'm willing to look at more research. I just don't think teens have much more than hormones driving decisions. Remember - Romeo and Juliet is a Tragedy, not a Romance.
But teens do not function on hormones alone. They do have immature minds where a certain part of their brain that allows good decision making, does not fully develop until they are 25. So mix that with their first brush with love (or rather, infatuation at this point), then you can handle teens more. I'd give kids at this age more credit and not let a certain percentage stereotype all of them.
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Old 08-15-2013, 11:51 AM   #438
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Finally, when I become a mother, I will not be upset if my son or daughter wants to explore sex.
Please check back to this comment when that day comes...
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Old 08-15-2013, 11:59 AM   #439
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The "streaming" comment is meant to illustrate a logical worst case scenario - and to question whether or not you are okay with it - that she is free to simply enjoy sex, no matter how many men or how many times.

well, she is free to enjoy sex, isn't she? with or without your permission, she is ultimately going to make her own choices.

and do you not trust her to choose when, where, with whom, and how many times? why would you assume that her default would be to have sex with many anonymous partners? i don't think it would be. in fact, i think that most teenagers would want to be in a real relationship, and relationships with accountability should be encouraged.

while i don't think it's yet feasible for American culture, what i love about the Dutch attitude is that it creates a context for what you (and i) think is the "best" place for sex -- within a monogamous relationship. that sex belongs in a relationship with one person, and when sex is acknowledged and regulated (via birth control, monogamy, health care) then the negative consequences can be drastically reduced if not entirely eradicated.

i'm sure this is very difficult for parents to wrap our heads around, but i prefer the Dutch model and their, you know, rates of teen pregnancy 4x lower than ours (shouldn't the anti-choice folks be proud of this?).
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Old 08-15-2013, 11:59 AM   #440
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Please check back to this comment when that day comes...
Oh please. Do you really think I should handle that stage by flipping out and shaming my kids for even thinking about sex? I will teach them it is perfectly natural to be interested in sex, and not wrong, dirty or sinful. Honestly, AEON, I think your worries over this could backfire on you, and you may get a rebellious kid doing the opposite of what you want them to do.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:13 PM   #441
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Oh please. Do you really think I should handle that stage by flipping out and shaming my kids for even thinking about sex? I will teach them it is perfectly natural to be interested in sex, and not wrong, dirty or sinful. Honestly, AEON, I think your worries over this could backfire on you, and you may get a rebellious kid doing the opposite of what you want them to do.
You didn't say "thinking about sex" - you said "explore" - that is what prompted my comment.

I do not have my teenage daughter locked in a room waiting for a suitable knight to come along. We simply do our best to teach her that sex is sacred (according to our views) and should be reserved for marriage (this is the goal - and we realize this probably won't happen). Also - according to our view, sex is a sin outside of marriage. That may not mean anything to you, but it means something to our family. Additionally, we do keep an eye on her activities. She is not free to roam the night until the moment she decides to come home. This is just responsible parenting.

The same morals will be taught to our son when he comes of age.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:22 PM   #442
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well, she is free to enjoy sex, isn't she? with or without your permission, she is ultimately going to make her own choices.
Yes - so then why are we having this discussion if you think that is all there is to it?

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and do you not trust her to choose when, where, with whom, and how many times? why would you assume that her default would be to have sex with many anonymous partners?
I don't assume that would be her default behavior. Again - I was presenting a worst case scenario to prove a point.

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while i don't think it's yet feasible for American culture, what i love about the Dutch attitude is that it creates a context for what you (and i) think is the "best" place for sex -- within a monogamous relationship.
Why do you think monogamy is best? Just curious. Would you teach that to your son or daughter if you ever adopt? If so - why?

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then the negative consequences can be drastically reduced if not entirely eradicated.
And that is the main point - there ARE negative consequences to sex - it is not just a scoop of ice cream raising endorphin levels.

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i'm sure this is very difficult for parents to wrap our heads around, but i prefer the Dutch model and their, you know, rates of teen pregnancy 4x lower than ours (shouldn't the anti-choice folks be proud of this?).
Are you suggesting teen pregnancy is a bad thing?
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:26 PM   #443
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You didn't say "thinking about sex" - you said "explore" - that is what prompted my comment.
OK, fair enough.


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Are you suggesting teen pregnancy is a bad thing?
Er, are you joking here, or trying to bait a discussion?
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:40 PM   #444
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Yes - so then why are we having this discussion if you think that is all there is to it?
i'm pointing out how anti-sex attitudes can create more harm than good.

and being pro-sex doesn't mean pro-teen sex.


Quote:
I don't assume that would be her default behavior. Again - I was presenting a worst case scenario to prove a point.
what is the actual point?



Quote:
Why do you think monogamy is best? Just curious. Would you teach that to your son or daughter if ever adopt? If so - why?
with monogamy you have accountability, and the negative consequences of sex are virtually nil. if two people are std free and they only have sex with each other, they will never contract an std.

some couples may negotiate with monogamy, and it can be said that monogamy is not natural and difficult for many people. adults skilled enough to explore the world of open relationships are certainly free to do so, but i do think the cultural expectation is monogamy.



Quote:
And that is the main point - there ARE negative consequences to sex - it is not just a scoop of ice cream raising endorphin levels.
of course. so encouraging good, healthy sex seems a better way than forbidding it and encouraging a double standard for boys and girls.

i'm not saying you're doing this, i'm responding in general, and keeping in mind the article i posed where the father wishes his daughter a happy sex life, whether it's only within the bounds of matrimony or otherwise. the point he's making is that he wants his daughter to view sex as a good thing, and not as a thing she "gives up" to a boy that wants it.

and, in my opinion, it's this "getting" of sex that contributes to Rape Culture and things like Stuebenville, Tailhook, etc.



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Are you suggesting teen pregnancy is a bad thing?

yes.
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Old 08-15-2013, 01:19 PM   #445
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and being pro-sex doesn't mean pro-teen sex.
I understand - but that was the focus of your Dutch article.



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what is the actual point?
That it is crazy to suggest that a father should completely ignore their teenage daughter's sex life.




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with monogamy you have accountability, and the negative consequences of sex are virtually nil. if two people are std free and they only have sex with each other, they will never contract an std.
Sounds a lot like marriage.


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and, in my opinion, it's this "getting" of sex that contributes to Rape Culture and things like Stuebenville, Tailhook, etc.
There's probably some truth to that. I would not argue against the fact the "getting some" is often portrayed as the "highest goal" in many movies and songs.





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yes.
Good - so we can at least agree that parents wanting their teenage daughters to remain free from pregnancy and disease is in fact - a positive thing.
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Old 08-15-2013, 01:56 PM   #446
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Good - so we can at least agree that parents wanting their teenage daughters to remain free from pregnancy and disease is in fact - a positive thing.
And let's forget the double standard and include teenage sons into this.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:17 PM   #447
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And let's forget the double standard and include teenage sons into this.
Yes, the same hope and prayer will be there for my son when he reaches his teen years - there is no double standard.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:37 PM   #448
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Good - so we can at least agree that parents wanting their teenage daughters to remain free from pregnancy and disease is in fact - a positive thing.


and research will show that comprehensive sex education is better at this than abstinence education.

the same could be said for parenting.

teens who sneak around and view sex as an impulsive, forbidden thing like drinking and drugs are much more likely to end up pregnant and/or with an STD.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:38 PM   #449
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I understand - but that was the focus of your Dutch article.

no, the focus of the Dutch article wasn't necessarily to encourage teens to have sex, but to encourage teens who are having sex to have healthy relationships.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:42 PM   #450
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no, the focus of the Dutch article wasn't necessarily to encourage teens to have sex, but to encourage teens who are having sex to have healthy relationships.
What I meant was the focus was on teens, and not on adults.
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