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Old 11-12-2012, 09:13 AM   #31
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Yep. It's selfish to take a stand for yourself, that's what some of us are often told. You get the message that you're not worth it, not supposed to feel like you are. Sometimes you learn the hard way and sometimes it takes way too long.

It gets demoralizing to always have the backs of others and to sometimes feel like no one has yours. That's when it's best to just have your own and be able to shrug it off.
Yes!
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:34 AM   #32
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Not just selfish, frankly you're seen as a bitch too. Etc. Whatever term (s) you want to use. When men are far more often applauded for taking a stand for themselves, and sometimes for far worse behavior.

Not always is that the case, or under all circumstances. But that double standard still exists.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:14 AM   #33
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As someone who has a job in a predominantly male field I have to say that yes, feminism is still relevant and sexism is still rampant. It isn't even about equal pay, it's about the strange assumptions and rules and gender roles forced upon women in this day and age. That is not to say that men do not have gender roles forced upon them, it's just that those roles are far less restrictive.

A woman who speaks her mind is considered tactless and a "bitch". A woman who openly talks about sexuality is considered loose. There are taboo subjects and things that are considered appropriate. Many females I know don't even think twice about it and just accept the rules society have placed on us--so they don't really understand what it is like to challenge them. I've seen woman fighting against woman and sexism even between females as we seek to degrade others based on what our idea of a good woman is. "Slut" is thrown around an awful lot.

In the 21st century it still is not okay to question society's rules. But making progress in the legal system doesn't mean we have made a huge dent in society's system.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:35 AM   #34
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It feels good to have this discussion. We don't really talk about it often enough.

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But making progress in the legal system doesn't mean we have made a huge dent in society's system.
I think there is an unconscious bias toward men even among many women who consider themselves feminists.

In my family, my father is a feminist; my mother is not.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:19 PM   #35
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Speaking about sexism in the workplace, there's still a belief that if a woman is a boss, she is automatically a bitch and is impossible to work with. Sure, there are some female bosses who get big egos when promoted to a managment position, but so do men. The difference is, a man with a big ego is simply a jerk. But a woman with one is not only bitchy, but is not a real woman at all.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:28 PM   #36
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I realize that as a man, my perspective on this may be skewed. But I wonder if extremism is the issue here. There are extremes on any ideological issue, and those extreme voices tend to dominate and define conversations. As a result, the "bra burners" of the 70s became the defining characteristic of the feminism movement (as least in the eyes of the media), while (I would argue) more important but perhaps more moderate voices that argued for pay parity in the workplace or maternity leave were drowned out or ignored.

Just wondering.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:57 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by nathan1977
I realize that as a man, my perspective on this may be skewed. But I wonder if extremism is the issue here. There are extremes on any ideological issue, and those extreme voices tend to dominate and define conversations. As a result, the "bra burners" of the 70s became the defining characteristic of the feminism movement (as least in the eyes of the media), while (I would argue) more important but perhaps more moderate voices that argued for pay parity in the workplace or maternity leave were drowned out or ignored.

Just wondering.
I think most "movements" get overshadowed and hurt by extremism: religions, as mentioned before PETA, certain environmental groups, and most recently the Republican Party. Extremists get more attention and often cross the lines of common sense, law and/or morality therefore skew reality. Extremists will always hurt the cause because you end up having to battle the ignorant that oppose and the extremists who apparently share your cause.
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Old 11-12-2012, 02:35 PM   #38
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I realize that as a man, my perspective on this may be skewed. But I wonder if extremism is the issue here. There are extremes on any ideological issue, and those extreme voices tend to dominate and define conversations. As a result, the "bra burners" of the 70s became the defining characteristic of the feminism movement (as least in the eyes of the media), while (I would argue) more important but perhaps more moderate voices that argued for pay parity in the workplace or maternity leave were drowned out or ignored.

Just wondering.
Sure. A lot of that was not helpful. Although to be honest, I don't think the bra burners, although an easy image and titillating (pun intended) to the media were particularly off-putting. We were pretty much burning everything (from draft cards to flags to whatever) in the 70's. It was the protest du jour.

I think among certain segments, there was a perceived hostility to men (and in some cases, it was genuine), and a broader unwillingness to give the dignity of choice to stay-at-home mothers. Not many protest movements want people to stray far from the stated line. There was a certain radicalism that was fun to discuss in women's study classes, but not particularly practical.

But it got attention. It made people draw sides. It got some things done.
Just not enough.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:34 PM   #39
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What's wrong with bra burning? Try wearing one-you'd want to burn it too

I think extremism was probably necessary at first, in order to get anyone to pay attention.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:08 PM   #40
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What's wrong with bra burning? Try wearing one-you'd want to burn it too

I think extremism was probably necessary at first, in order to get anyone to pay attention.
Some people did pay attention and saw what they thought were total nutcases ,and ignored and scorned feminism, even those who simply advocated equality to men.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:09 PM   #41
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There's no doubt that you have to shout incredibly loud to be heard -- but the problem is when the loud shouters become the perception of the movement. So what I hear from younger voices is not really that they're not feminist -- they're just not bra-burning man-haters. I seem to remember Drew Barrymore saying something similar about ten years ago.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:14 PM   #42
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Could a bra-burning man hater have a valid point?
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:28 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by nathan1977
There's no doubt that you have to shout incredibly loud to be heard -- but the problem is when the loud shouters become the perception of the movement. So what I hear from younger voices is not really that they're not feminist -- they're just not bra-burning man-haters. I seem to remember Drew Barrymore saying something similar about ten years ago.
I just don't think all women should be held responsible for that and/or suffer as a result. By "suffer" I mean being perceived as a certain stereotype that isn't accurate, or being labeled a man hater or worse because you hold certain views. Kind of like saying all Republicans are the same as ultra conservative Republicans, or as the rape knowledge challenged men of recent history .. just to give one example among many possible ones.


I have no issue with those bra burning women/ so called man haters. I think I owe them quite a bit, I thank them for what they did, and I admire them.

Feminists come in all forms. The old image has just morphed into what all women can be in 2012. A stay at home Mom can be a feminist, a CEO can be one. I think that's how it should be, those are the choices that all that work made possible.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:00 PM   #44
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I think extremism was probably necessary at first, in order to get anyone to pay attention.
But let's look at all other groups when applying this line thinking... Don't you think PETA said the same thing? And don't you think it's hurt the cause?

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I just don't think all women should be held responsible for that and/or suffer as a result. By "suffer" I mean being perceived as a certain stereotype that isn't accurate, or being labeled a man hater or worse because you hold certain views.
I think we all agree about this, but we're saying that no matter if it's fair or not, this is what happens. I mean look no further than this board and see how warped some posters knowledge of the Muslim religion is based on extremism.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:41 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by nathan1977
There's no doubt that you have to shout incredibly loud to be heard -- but the problem is when the loud shouters become the perception of the movement. So what I hear from younger voices is not really that they're not feminist -- they're just not bra-burning man-haters. I seem to remember Drew Barrymore saying something similar about ten years ago.
But all this talk of the bra-burning only makes the point about conservative propaganda all the more relevant, as the bra-burning never actually happened in any of the places that original critics of feminism claimed. The "extremist" element within feminism is largely an invention of the right. So when young women say they are not feminists, a lot of times they are relying on a fabricated depiction.
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