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Old 04-25-2013, 01:02 PM   #136
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[QUOTE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

April 24, 2013
Wikipedia’s Sexism Toward Female NovelistsBy AMANDA FILIPACCHI
I JUST noticed something strange on Wikipedia. It appears that gradually, over time, editors have begun the process of moving women, one by one, alphabetically, from the “American Novelists” category to the “American Women Novelists” subcategory. So far, female authors whose last names begin with A or B have been most affected, although many others have, too.

The intention appears to be to create a list of “American Novelists” on Wikipedia that is made up almost entirely of men. The category lists 3,837 authors, and the first few hundred of them are mainly men. The explanation at the top of the page is that the list of “American Novelists” is too long, and therefore the novelists have to be put in subcategories whenever possible.

Too bad there isn’t a subcategory for “American Men Novelists.”

People who go to Wikipedia to get ideas for whom to hire, or honor, or read, and look at that list of “American Novelists” for inspiration, might not even notice that the first page of it includes far more men than women. They might simply use that list without thinking twice about it. It’s probably small, easily fixable things like this that make it harder and slower for women to gain equality in the literary world.

Here’s the page on American Novelists, if you’re curious to take a look:

Category:American novelists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And here’s the page on American Women Novelists:

Category:American women novelists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I looked up a few female novelists. You can see the categories they’re in at the bottom of their pages. It appears that many female novelists, like Harper Lee, Anne Rice, Amy Tan, Donna Tartt and some 300 others, have been relegated to the ranks of “American Women Novelists” only, and no longer appear in the category “American Novelists.” If you look back in the “history” of these women’s pages, you can see that they used to appear in the category “American Novelists,” but that they were recently bumped down. Male novelists on Wikipedia, however — no matter how small or obscure they are — all get to be in the category “American Novelists.” It seems as though no one noticed.

I did more investigating and found other familiar names that had been switched from the “American Novelists” to the “American Women Novelists” category: Harriet Beecher Stowe, Ayn Rand, Ann Beattie, Djuna Barnes, Emily Barton, Jennifer Belle, Aimee Bender, Amy Bloom, Judy Blume, Alice Adams, Louisa May Alcott, V. C. Andrews, Mary Higgins Clark — and, upsetting to me: myself.

Some lucky female novelists, mostly the ones who are further down in the alphabet, haven’t been gotten to yet and are still in the big category “American Novelists.” Some are in both categories. But probably not for long.

I also noticed that Edwidge Danticat was plucked from “Haitian Novelists” and dumped into “Haitian Women Novelists.” So it seems, at least, that women from different countries are treated the same. It’s just too bad they’re not treated the same as men.

I belong to an e-mail group of published female writers called WOM (it stands for Word of Mouth). Some of the members are extremely well known. On Tuesday morning, when I made my discovery of this sexism on Wikipedia, I sent them an e-mail about it. I have since then been deluged with scandalized responses from these female authors. Word is spreading at a phenomenal rate, on Facebook and elsewhere. Already, changes are being made to the category “American Novelists.” A couple of female authors have started appearing on the first page, when yesterday there were only men.

Wikipedia is created and edited by its users. Hopefully, those users are starting to get the point.

Amanda Filipacchi is the author of the novels “Nude Men,” “Vapor” and “Love Creeps.” She is finishing a new novel.

][/QUOTE]

Sigh.

Kind of reminds me when Limbaugh talks about a woman's job, he assigns her a diminuitive like "reporterette". I can take that with a sense of snarky humor. It is amazingly pervasive though to assign women to a subcategory, to a diminuitive of one sort or another.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/op...gewanted=print
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:09 PM   #137
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Quote:
April 24, 2013
Wikipedia’s Sexism Toward Female NovelistsBy AMANDA FILIPACCHI
I JUST noticed something strange on Wikipedia. It appears that gradually, over time, editors have begun the process of moving women, one by one, alphabetically, from the “American Novelists” category to the “American Women Novelists” subcategory. So far, female authors whose last names begin with A or B have been most affected, although many others have, too.

The intention appears to be to create a list of “American Novelists” on Wikipedia that is made up almost entirely of men. The category lists 3,837 authors, and the first few hundred of them are mainly men. The explanation at the top of the page is that the list of “American Novelists” is too long, and therefore the novelists have to be put in subcategories whenever possible.

Too bad there isn’t a subcategory for “American Men Novelists.”

People who go to Wikipedia to get ideas for whom to hire, or honor, or read, and look at that list of “American Novelists” for inspiration, might not even notice that the first page of it includes far more men than women. They might simply use that list without thinking twice about it. It’s probably small, easily fixable things like this that make it harder and slower for women to gain equality in the literary world.

Here’s the page on American Novelists, if you’re curious to take a look:

Category:American novelists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And here’s the page on American Women Novelists:

Category:American women novelists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I looked up a few female novelists. You can see the categories they’re in at the bottom of their pages. It appears that many female novelists, like Harper Lee, Anne Rice, Amy Tan, Donna Tartt and some 300 others, have been relegated to the ranks of “American Women Novelists” only, and no longer appear in the category “American Novelists.” If you look back in the “history” of these women’s pages, you can see that they used to appear in the category “American Novelists,” but that they were recently bumped down. Male novelists on Wikipedia, however — no matter how small or obscure they are — all get to be in the category “American Novelists.” It seems as though no one noticed.

I did more investigating and found other familiar names that had been switched from the “American Novelists” to the “American Women Novelists” category: Harriet Beecher Stowe, Ayn Rand, Ann Beattie, Djuna Barnes, Emily Barton, Jennifer Belle, Aimee Bender, Amy Bloom, Judy Blume, Alice Adams, Louisa May Alcott, V. C. Andrews, Mary Higgins Clark — and, upsetting to me: myself.

Some lucky female novelists, mostly the ones who are further down in the alphabet, haven’t been gotten to yet and are still in the big category “American Novelists.” Some are in both categories. But probably not for long.

I also noticed that Edwidge Danticat was plucked from “Haitian Novelists” and dumped into “Haitian Women Novelists.” So it seems, at least, that women from different countries are treated the same. It’s just too bad they’re not treated the same as men.

I belong to an e-mail group of published female writers called WOM (it stands for Word of Mouth). Some of the members are extremely well known. On Tuesday morning, when I made my discovery of this sexism on Wikipedia, I sent them an e-mail about it. I have since then been deluged with scandalized responses from these female authors. Word is spreading at a phenomenal rate, on Facebook and elsewhere. Already, changes are being made to the category “American Novelists.” A couple of female authors have started appearing on the first page, when yesterday there were only men.

Wikipedia is created and edited by its users. Hopefully, those users are starting to get the point.

Amanda Filipacchi is the author of the novels “Nude Men,” “Vapor” and “Love Creeps.” She is finishing a new novel.

]
Sigh.

Kind of reminds me when Limbaugh talks about a woman's job, he assigns her a diminuitive like "reporterette". I can take that with a sense of snarky humor. It is amazingly pervasive though to assign women to a subcategory, to a diminuitive of one sort or another.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/op...gewanted=print[/QUOTE]

Reminds me when Limbaugh talks about a woman's job in the diminuitive like reporterette, etc. I kind take that with a kind of snarky humor. I see its purpose. But the pervasiveness of putting women in subcategories as if the word novelist does not include women without the identifier--there are writers and then there are women writers-- does succeed in a diminished impression.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:13 PM   #138
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I don't know when they started making that distinction but it's like how they now have girl versions of things that girls have long enjoyed and never needed a separate identifying category. Lego for girls (WTF), Kinder Eggs for girls (double WTF).
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:26 PM   #139
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Amazon.com: BIC Cristal For Her Ball Pen, 1.0mm, Black, 16ct (MSLP16-Blk): Office Products

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Someone has answered my gentle prayers and FINALLY designed a pen that I can use all month long! I use it when I'm swimming, riding a horse, walking on the beach and doing yoga. It's comfortable, leak-proof, non-slip and it makes me feel so feminine and pretty! Since I've begun using these pens, men have found me more attractive and approchable. It has given me soft skin and manageable hair and it has really given me the self-esteem I needed to start a book club and flirt with the bag-boy at my local market. My drawings of kittens and ponies have improved, and now that I'm writing my last name hyphenated with the Robert Pattinson's last name, I really believe he may some day marry me! I'm positively giddy. Those smart men in marketing have come up with a pen that my lady parts can really identify with.
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Old 04-25-2013, 02:31 PM   #140
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^So true. How exciting.


PS As you can see, I had a bitch of a time posting that article. (Lunch was ending and I kept losing my post. So now there are duplicates all over the place. I obviously didn't proof that. )
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Old 04-25-2013, 04:07 PM   #141
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Pens specifically for women?

As a pen collector, I guess I have the wrong pens on my desk.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:01 AM   #142
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We don't tend to think of women as sexist, largely because historically, sexism has been something perpetrated by men towards women. But sexism refers simply to unequal treatment in relation to a person's gender. It often involves a power dynamic -- common in the workplace -- and can happen to, and be inflicted by, anyone. Many feminists have rejected the notion that women can be sexist towards men because women lack the institutional power than men have. Except we know that's changing, most notably at work, as more females rise to management positions, a trend that will only continue to grow, since women now comprise the majority of college and graduate students nationwide.
The rise of females in power positions may be one reason that more and more men are reporting having experienced discrimination at work -- even more so than women. A 2006 study commissioned by staffing agency Kelly Services found that nearly 35 percent of men said they believed they had experienced discrimination over the past five years at work compared with 33.3 percent of women. Of course, like Sari, many women may be surprised to find that they can, in fact, be sexist, or that the "preferences" they hold in the workplace may actually be dangerously prejudicial. In many cases, such sexism is what researchers have dubbed "benevolent sexism," a less overt form of sexism that often plays on stereotypes such as the idea that men should always open doors, or that women are more nurturing and kinder than men. They are comments or attitudes that are seemingly positive -- such as, a man can surely handle criticism -- but serve to cause feelings of unease, or lead to unequal treatment. And, according to study conducted at the University of Florida, such sexism is practiced by men and women in equal measure.
Dr. Peggy Drexler: Who Says Women Aren't Sexist?

I think this is very true in a lot of cases. I didn't think of myself as a feminist until after college and I got my first "real world" job. It was then that I really experienced how men and women worked together. I felt as if the place where I worked expected all females to be dainty, nurturing, always in need of help - damsels in distress, basically - and not aggressive in anyway in getting a job done. I wasn't like any of that, and there were problems. Some of the guys made no secret that I annoyed them and some of the girls seemed to lean on the guys to save them. It may have been a personality issue on my part and I wasn't fitting with the workplace culture, but was it really sexist or was it just me?

Anyway, I'm just saying sometimes what anyone can perceive as sexism - or even any kind of prejudice - may just be about the individual and nothing else.

And by the way, I don't mind some forms of "benevolent sexism". I love it when guys hold doors open for women. Who wouldn't want to be treated like a queen?
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:13 AM   #143
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Dr. Peggy Drexler: Who Says Women Aren't Sexist?

I think this is very true in a lot of cases. I didn't think of myself as a feminist until after college and I got my first "real world" job. It was then that I really experienced how men and women worked together. I felt as if the place where I worked expected all females to be dainty, nurturing, always in need of help - damsels in distress, basically - and not aggressive in anyway in getting a job done. I wasn't like any of that, and there were problems. Some of the guys made no secret that I annoyed them and some of the girls seemed to lean on the guys to save them. It may have been a personality issue on my part and I wasn't fitting with the workplace culture, but was it really sexist or was it just me?
Probably there was some sexism there, in that you weren't behaving in the "right", expected way. Probably people didn't even consciously identify that you weren't acting right for a woman- but I bet it didn't take them long to find the word 'bitch' behind your back. That's usually a really good tipoff that that there is some sexist bullshit going on.


Women's sexist attitudes are referred to as internalized sexism. Nonstraight and people of color experience internalized bias against their own ingroups, too.

FAQ: What is “internalized sexism”? | Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog

"What it does mean, however, is that it is very easy for women — even feminist women — to side with the “male” point of view (see the FAQ entry on male privilege for how “male” is seen as “normal”) and therefore devalue the “female” point of view, in ourselves, in other women, and even in men."

We all swim in the same sea, so we can't get away from some of the attitudes we are raised with. In my case, it's often eye rolling at those super nurturey women who seem to have nothing better to think about.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:44 AM   #144
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Probably there was some sexism there, in that you weren't behaving in the "right", expected way. Probably people didn't even consciously identify that you weren't acting right for a woman- but I bet it didn't take them long to find the word 'bitch' behind your back. That's usually a really good tipoff that that there is some sexist bullshit going on.


Women's sexist attitudes are referred to as internalized sexism. Nonstraight and people of color experience internalized bias against their own ingroups, too.

FAQ: What is “internalized sexism”? | Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog

"What it does mean, however, is that it is very easy for women — even feminist women — to side with the “male” point of view (see the FAQ entry on male privilege for how “male” is seen as “normal”) and therefore devalue the “female” point of view, in ourselves, in other women, and even in men."

We all swim in the same sea, so we can't get away from some of the attitudes we are raised with. In my case, it's often eye rolling at those super nurturey women who seem to have nothing better to think about.
Yeah, it is more likely that it was a sexist workplace. Maybe if I had been more flexible I wouldn't have experienced so much animosity, but then I wouldn't be true to myself. And "bitch" was one of the kinder words I knew that was being said about me.

In regards to that, some women go along with sexism to get what they want. If they're expected to be the damsel in distress, they'll go along with that if it could possibly lead to a promotion or getting the job done. But they also don't get much respect as a person; they're still second to a man. I don't know if they're just playing the game or find their work more important than their dignity. Of course, they could always move on to another company. But some stay in the same place for a long time, and that's when I wonder if they really accept sexism like that.
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Old 05-24-2013, 01:06 PM   #145
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I think a lot of women (and men) will play into the roles they think will get them ahead. Although it is opportunistic in either way, I often wonder how much self-awareness goes into the taking on of roles. Do they buy into it or do they know they are playing a part?

I think part of Pearl's earlier post dealt too with whether or not women are sexist toward men. I think they are. I think at this point it is significantly less harmful overall than sexism toward women because of the power structure, but I also think it is hurtful to the individual men who are experiencing it. When a man faces genuine discrimination, I don't discard that because frankly, while mostly men make up the power structure, most men are not in that power structure.

I sometimes dismiss men because I think that they don't understand this or this is not their skill or varying other perceived skill sets. For example, I'm probably naturally less honest with most men than I am with women. I have to step back and monitor myself. Why am I behaving like this? I don't show vulnerability to men. I do to women. On the other hand, I often nurture men more than I do women. Now is that showing a preference to men or is that showing an unconscious disrespect toward men--that they need more nurturing? Even for someone who gets along quite well with both sexes and have managed to avoid being called a bitch most of the time, it's a complex linewalk.

I do often see an unconscious preference toward men when push comes to shove or when choice is at hand even among avowed feminists. It is something women need to consider as to why we discount ourselves so much even when we give each other lip service?
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Old 05-24-2013, 01:09 PM   #146
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Would I be wrong in saying that feminism is very much alive and relevant on cable television?

Uber popular HBO programs like GAME OF THRONES and GIRLS display it every episode.
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Old 05-24-2013, 01:30 PM   #147
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I think a lot of women (and men) will play into the roles they think will get them ahead. Although it is opportunistic in either way, I often wonder how much self-awareness goes into the taking on of roles. Do they buy into it or do they know they are playing a part?
Like I said, if they play the part to get a promotion or experience, and then go onto a better company, then they played a role. But if they stay at the place long after they achieved their goals, I would suspect they do buy into the sexist expectations. That, or there's something else about the company that they like.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:04 PM   #148
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Like I said, if they play the part to get a promotion or experience, and then go onto a better company, then they played a role. But if they stay at the place long after they achieved their goals, I would suspect they do buy into the sexist expectations. That, or there's something else about the company that they like.
Agreed.

I do wonder how much self-awareness goes on in some people anyway. So much disconnect between talk and behavior.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:05 PM   #149
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Would I be wrong in saying that feminism is very much alive and relevant on cable television?

Uber popular HBO programs like GAME OF THRONES and GIRLS display it every episode.
Haven't seen either. So I will defer to those who have.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:41 PM   #150
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Would I be wrong in saying that feminism is very much alive and relevant on cable television?

Uber popular HBO programs like GAME OF THRONES and GIRLS display it every episode.
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Haven't seen either. So I will defer to those who have.

GAF, what is your idea of feminism? What examples can you give that GoT and Girls display feminism in every episode?
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