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Old 05-27-2012, 12:22 PM   #16
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I can sympathize with some of the students' arguments, especially in light of the preposterous Bill 78, but you can't divorce the debate over tuition from the general fiscal situation of the province.

Quebec struggles with gross mismanagement of the public purse, and can hardly afford such low tuition fees. Quebec is not Germany (strong economy and fiscal situation) or Scandinavia (mandatory military or community service). The government's new position (increased grants and loans, progressive payment schedule) is fairly reasonable given the circumstances and certainly goes far enough to ensure accessibility to post-secondary education in the province.

That said, I fully support a movement of protest or, say, public pressure to call for a crackdown on corruption within the government's rotten affairs. The Charbonneau Inquiry into the crooked public contract award system began last week and is bound to unearth juicy details surrounding the corrupt political system in Quebec. The population should keep the pressure up to affect real change in that respect.

But the proposed tuition and grants & loan scheme? Reasonable in my opinion.
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Old 05-27-2012, 06:39 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ladyfreckles View Post
The quality of this education just does not match the price.
this is really the take-home bit of all of this, at least for american colleges.

i too can't speak for how things are/should be in canada, but the degree mindset in america is ridiculous. the fact that most jobs other than working as a server or a cashier at a store require a degree now just cheapens the whole thing i think. it used to be if you chose to go to college, you were set. you were gonna be somebody's boss or you wanted something specialised, or maybe you were looking to go to law or med school. now? it's something everyone's gotta do, because to answer phones for minimum wage it apparently requires a four year university-level education. thank god for those two semesters of science i had to take, otherwise i would've never understood the complexities of picking up and hanging up a telephone. and transferring calls? that's where the two semesters of math comes in handy.

plus it sucks for like 99% of kids because they can't jobs in the fields they want. i know it was a problem even back in the day, but it's even worse now that college has become a requirement rather than an option. so the english major who loves to write is stuck making copies for a living, and the business major who dreamed of becoming an executive is stuck trying to sell cell phones at best buy.
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Old 05-27-2012, 06:44 PM   #18
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Meanwhile, I've been working for about six or seven months in a job in my chosen field, and I haven't even finished my degree yet

Shit's messed up.
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Old 05-27-2012, 06:58 PM   #19
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Meanwhile, I've been working for about six or seven months in a job in my chosen field, and I haven't even finished my degree yet

Shit's messed up.
One of the job fields I was interested in did not require a degree back where I grew up. However, over here, you won't even have your application looked at unless you have a 4-year degree in progress or complete. It's location based and job based, I think. I had no trouble getting job offers for part-time jobs out east, but the second I moved over here to Seattle the problems just piled up. I've sent thousands of applications and resumes out over the past two years and I've only gotten about five or six interviews. I would call to follow up and ask, showed up to make myself known, did everything I could. Most of the time I didn't get an answer as to why they looked me over, but almost every time I did get an answer it had something to do with my education.
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:28 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes View Post
this is really the take-home bit of all of this, at least for american colleges.

i too can't speak for how things are/should be in canada, but the degree mindset in america is ridiculous. the fact that most jobs other than working as a server or a cashier at a store require a degree now just cheapens the whole thing i think. it used to be if you chose to go to college, you were set. you were gonna be somebody's boss or you wanted something specialised, or maybe you were looking to go to law or med school. now? it's something everyone's gotta do, because to answer phones for minimum wage it apparently requires a four year university-level education. thank god for those two semesters of science i had to take, otherwise i would've never understood the complexities of picking up and hanging up a telephone. and transferring calls? that's where the two semesters of math comes in handy.

plus it sucks for like 99% of kids because they can't jobs in the fields they want. i know it was a problem even back in the day, but it's even worse now that college has become a requirement rather than an option. so the english major who loves to write is stuck making copies for a living, and the business major who dreamed of becoming an executive is stuck trying to sell cell phones at best buy.
*Nods* THIS. Every last word .
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Old 05-27-2012, 10:49 PM   #21
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I'm not sure how I feel about this either. I think, at a fundamental level, things like education and medicine should be free, but then what kind of quality will you get if nobody is making money at the other end?
Surely the government would see investing in education and health is a good thing. Making education and health free would help so many people. Chronically ill people could be managed and possibly enjoy a life without pain or disadvantage. Imagine if your child couldn't go to school? Circumstances change from birth to school and some people cannot afford expensive schooling. Education is a basic need, without it the rich get richer and the poor get the picture.

primary and secondary free, university within reach of the people who want to go.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:09 PM   #22
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If all this credentialism is so important, perhaps 'free' schooling should be extended to something closer to 15 years and incorporate elements now found in many undergraduate degrees.

Then the 'elite' can do their doctorates or whatever at some uber-expensive college.
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Old 05-28-2012, 12:07 AM   #23
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Surely the government would see investing in education and health is a good thing. Making education and health free would help so many people. Chronically ill people could be managed and possibly enjoy a life without pain or disadvantage. Imagine if your child couldn't go to school? Circumstances change from birth to school and some people cannot afford expensive schooling. Education is a basic need, without it the rich get richer and the poor get the picture.

primary and secondary free, university within reach of the people who want to go.
I've always thought it was disgustingly short sighted when governments cut spending on schooling and teachers get the shaft on salaries. It should be one of the untouchables when it comes to budget cuts; spend the money now and in a generation, save 10 times that in the problems it would alleviate. But people want the government to spend their money on things they'll see the benefits from in a year, not 20 years. It's a shame
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Old 05-28-2012, 12:11 AM   #24
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primary and secondary free, university within reach of the people who want to go.
I was talking about post secondary in my original post. elementary and secondary are free as it is (though underfunded)
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Old 05-28-2012, 03:06 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
I've always thought it was disgustingly short sighted when governments cut spending on schooling and teachers get the shaft on salaries. It should be one of the untouchables when it comes to budget cuts; spend the money now and in a generation, save 10 times that in the problems it would alleviate. But people want the government to spend their money on things they'll see the benefits from in a year, not 20 years. It's a shame
It depends on where you live. In my hometown teachers were ridiculously overpaid and under-qualified. Here teachers are overqualified and underpaid. I remember a kindergarten teacher making $80,000 in my hometown. She'd been doing it for 20 years, but the starting salary for many elementary school teachers was $65,000. Here I have a friend who teaches third grade and barely makes above the poverty level, yet we require a masters degree to teach.

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Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post
If all this credentialism is so important, perhaps 'free' schooling should be extended to something closer to 15 years and incorporate elements now found in many undergraduate degrees.

Then the 'elite' can do their doctorates or whatever at some uber-expensive college.
The countries with the highest science and math scores in the world have LESS years of schooling than we do. Finland has 10 years of pre-college education as opposed to our 12.
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Old 05-28-2012, 06:20 AM   #26
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The countries with the highest science and math scores in the world have LESS years of schooling than we do. Finland has 10 years of pre-college education as opposed to our 12.
yep, it isn't how long you learn it, but how you learn it.
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Old 05-28-2012, 02:37 PM   #27
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Primary and secondary education is a right. Tertiary education is neither a right nor a privilege, it is a choice.

I agree with this.

Here in America, kindergarten through 12th grade is compulsory and paid for by public funding. Anything beyond that is a choice. To require any public funding for college is questionable and has contributed to the soaring costs that so many are complaining about.
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Old 05-28-2012, 02:53 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Cin View Post
Surely the government would see investing in education and health is a good thing. Making education and health free would help so many people. Chronically ill people could be managed and possibly enjoy a life without pain or disadvantage. Imagine if your child couldn't go to school? Circumstances change from birth to school and some people cannot afford expensive schooling. Education is a basic need, without it the rich get richer and the poor get the picture.

primary and secondary free, university within reach of the people who want to go.
a lot of people in this thread have been throwing around the word "free".

I think what is meant is "provided at no cost" to the user.

The costs of higher education in America has grown way out of proportion because there is a disconnect between what and how the user pays and to where the costs have gone.
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