Is anyone here not religious and not athiest? As in, just not pushy about religion? - Page 7 - U2 Feedback

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Old 11-07-2011, 06:42 AM   #91
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It's been a while since mandatory Catechism class in Catholic high school, but I don't recall the understanding of baptism involving wholesale implantation of a 'Catholic worldview' in the infant's brain (which for starters would make having to attend Catholic school, a far more obvious thing to bitch about I'd think, quite superfluous).
Is being baptism not, put simply, an insurance policy that your soul will ascend to heaven upon death?

I was baptised Catholic, but have since moved further and further away from the faith. I haven't been to a church for anything other than a funeral or a wedding in more than a decade.

I remember having a discussion with my ex-girlfriend a few years ago that I had always planned on not baptising my kids and letting them make their own conclusions about religion when they got mature and old enough to do so.

Her response was 'Well, what if, God forbid, your child dies at three years old? They wouldn't be able to get into heaven then! How could you do that to your child?!"

And I could not wrap my head around that idea. My response was: "What about Hindu kids that die? Where do they go? And what about others? If we're all God's children, then why would only a select few make it into heaven?"

We broke up not long after that.
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:36 AM   #92
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That sort of obsession on the dogmatic reasoning about man-made rules is the ultimate turn off on religion.
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We broke up not long after that.
good lad
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:20 PM   #93
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Is it not more how the child is raised that makes it a Catholic or Jew than actually any of those practices?

Aren't we all basically products of our parent's world view in our formative years anyway? I can't really see baptism as an abuse anymore than how any parent chooses to raise a child according to their beliefs or lack of. I've read about some catholics going through the whole process of getting their baptism renounced, if which I see little value in doing, as it's something that has lost any importance to me anyway.

I would quite honestly say I was homophobic up until my late teens, with the whole hate the sin and not the sinner mantra, we're all introduced to certain belief systems by our parents, its not really until we're old enough that we can decide for ourselves what way we want to be, and have the confidence as well as the experience to question what we led to believe before. Being baptised or not has little effect.
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:07 PM   #94
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I

Aren't we all basically products of our parent's world view in our formative years anyway? .
Yes, but if someone were to say to you "this is my 8 month old neoconservative baby" you'd think they were batshit insane
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:15 PM   #95
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I find it hard to believe you actually require convincing that the threat to society posed by Nazism becoming normative would be rivaled by the threat (already) posed by Catholicism being normative.
Well, no, of course not
I was just using an extreme example to make a point. But some people would say that religion is a threat to society and it's precisely because it's seen as being normal that it's accepted. But just because society has accepted certain practices as being normal doesn't make them inherently pure.

Using the term 'child abuse' in these cases is probably a bit extreme and might dilute the idea a bit
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:35 PM   #96
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Yes, but if someone were to say to you "this is my 8 month old neoconservative baby" you'd think they were batshit insane
Yeah but a political viewpoint and being of a certain faith are different things. I mean most of what people of faith believe could simply be termed 'batshit insane', but most are clearly sane and of sound mind. A political view does not pertain to the mystical. Plus many faiths have strong cultural connotations aside from religious belief, like where I grew up in Belfast, you were Catholic, but it had very little to do with the actual faith, it is viewed as your 'ethnic' background. So saying a child is catholic or Jewish to many is much the same as saying it is Irish, Mexican, Black or white.

Plus baptism aside from the insurance policy mainly indicates intent to raise the child in the Catholic faith.
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:37 PM   #97
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To be fair, no one says "this is my 8-month-old Jewish baby."

And there are plenty of people who put political crap on their kids. Just search cafepress for infantwear in the "nobama" section
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:58 PM   #98
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To be fair, no one says "this is my 8-month-old Jewish baby."
By baptizing a child you are essentially saying the same thing. They might not say those exact words, but of course people say a baby is jewish or catholic or whatever
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Old 11-07-2011, 02:02 PM   #99
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Yeah but a political viewpoint and being of a certain faith are different things.
But they're really not. They're intellectual viewpoints in the way people define themselves.
I get the cultural references though. I touched on that in my response to finance guy. By father's side is from Belfast and I still somewhat identify with my protestant background despite my complete lack of practice and belief.
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Old 11-07-2011, 02:06 PM   #100
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Plus baptism aside from the insurance policy mainly indicates intent to raise the child in the Catholic faith.
I think we're getting a little away from the original point, as Dawkins, and Hutchins for that matter, would say that raising a child into a particular faith is the psychological abuse. The act of baptizing is somewhat irrelevant. It's the indoctrination that begins at the baptism that he's referring to.
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Old 11-07-2011, 03:32 PM   #101
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If a Native American raises his or her child to know and respect the customs, language, and cultural legacy (including religion) of their tribe, is that an abusive and socially threatening act of indoctrination? If I teach my children that all humans are equal and endowed with inalienable rights to life and liberty, is that indoctrination? If I teach them that animals are to be treated with compassion and never beaten (or perhaps even never eaten), is that indoctrination? What if I seek to reinforce the latter teaching by forbidding them to read and discuss any materials on human nutrition which advocate a non-vegetarian diet, threaten to disinherit them if I ever catch them eating meat, and applaud firebombings of animal research facilites in their presence--would that change your evaluation of the ethical significance of what I'm doing?

Words should mean something. Not all transmission of ideas and values, whether you ultimately reject them or not, is indoctrination.
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Old 11-07-2011, 05:03 PM   #102
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Indoctrinating them with fear is completely different: Telling adolescent boys and girls that if they're gay, they will burn in hell for eternity. That if they give in to the completely normal and natural urge to masturbate, they're sinners. Every major religion relies on fear to control the minds of the young (and old for that matter). Some will brush it off, but others will find themselves confused and tormented by it.
And then there are the various forms of male and female genital mutilation performed against their wishes in the name of religion.
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Old 11-07-2011, 05:12 PM   #103
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I realize the thread has gone in a direction that Canadiens didn't intend, but the conversation seems to have remained cool and level headed, so I hope he's ok with it
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Old 11-07-2011, 05:22 PM   #104
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certitude about religion always bothered me. always. no matter the religion. even when i was little, my attitude always was, "well how do you know?" it seemed utterly asinine to argue about which religion was true or correct because that was like trying to argue that it was better to be Italian or Irish, or that vanilla ice cream was better than chocolate. it's like ... seriously? learning about your religion was one thing, but i remember flatly telling my CCD teachers in 7th grade that there was no way i was ever going to tell other people that they should become Catholic and i was told to "examine my faith."

even then i found little difference between evangelizing and being an asshole, and that's still the case today.

i suppose one could make an argument that Hitchens/Dawkins are atheist assholes, and i suppose that could be correct. that said, it seems like they're more a reaction rather than a starting point.
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Old 11-07-2011, 05:28 PM   #105
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that said, it seems like they're more a reaction rather than a starting point.
I meant to make that point a couple pages ago
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