Is America More or Less Violent Today?

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maycocksean

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I see a paradox in modern American society. As a predominant cultural value we seem less tolerant of violence of any sort than at any other time in our history. Our children are taught that violence is never an acceptable means of solving problems, we wring our hands over bullying, corporal punishment is now considered tantamount to abuse. Yet, at the same time the level of violence in our entertainment has reached unprecedented levels. Often the same people that will vehemently argue against schoolyard violence have no problem viewing (or having their young children) view the latest slasher flick. And violence continues--gang violence, the kid killed over a pair of shoes, school shootings, serial killers--things that were unheard of generations ago. War continues, as it always has, but we are far less tolerant of high casualty counts then we once were. We are horrified by the numbers of our soldier killed in Iraq while more died in about 30 minutes of the battle of Antietam during the Civil War.

So, are we, as a society more or less violent today? What do you think?
 
short answer - less
going by number of incidents, as a percentage in the population



I do find the tolerance for violence appalling
I can't watch Dexter, I think it is repugnant.
 
People have always been like that-public outrage over stuff they're privately, at the very least, fascinated by. I personally would rather a teenager watch a slasher flick than the news sometimes-at least the violence in the slasher flick is all fake, nobody is actually getting hurt or killed.

I think the violence in entertainment is merely a reflection of the amount of violence going on in real life (we've had violence long before any forms of media popped up, so it doesn't make sense to say media's to blame for why society is so violent, 'cause how do you explain pre-media violence, then? What was the inspiration there?). If society over time becomes less violent, the media will eventually begin to reflect that.

I honestly don't know what the statistics are, but I'd imagine that sometimes it seems that we're more violent than we really are-not only does the media reflect the violence, but they also like to trump up how scary things are to get ratings and viewers. I imagine if the same media that was around today was around in the 1950s, it'd probably seem like violence was happening every which way you looked then, too. I'll just say that hoping we're less violent than we used to be and continuing to move in that direction.

Angela
 
I see a paradox in modern American society. As a predominant cultural value we seem less tolerant of violence of any sort than at any other time in our history. Our children are taught that violence is never an acceptable means of solving problems, we wring our hands over bullying, corporal punishment is now considered tantamount to abuse. Yet, at the same time the level of violence in our entertainment has reached unprecedented levels. Often the same people that will vehemently argue against schoolyard violence have no problem viewing (or having their young children) view the latest slasher flick. And violence continues--gang violence, the kid killed over a pair of shoes, school shootings, serial killers--things that were unheard of generations ago. War continues, as it always has, but we are far less tolerant of high casualty counts then we once were. We are horrified by the numbers of our soldier killed in Iraq while more died in about 30 minutes of the battle of Antietam during the Civil War.

So, are we, as a society more or less violent today? What do you think?

It's not just America, though, is it. These problems you have mentioned exist in all globalised societies. Look at the recent mass shootings in the UK, Finland and Germany (it is also interesting to note the trend of increasing crime in recent decades in societies as nominally diverse as Ireland and Malaysia, for example. )

The nature of globalised societies is quite simply to atomise and alienate, as I'm pretty sure I've said on numerous occasions on here. (No-one ever listens. :angry:)

Indeed I would go as far as to say that traditional conservatives like me and anarchists have a common enemy - neo-liberal globalisation.

As for corporal punishment, I personally would not be in favour of bringing it back as there is always the risk that a small minority of teachers might abuse it, but I certainly wouldn't go so far as to make it illegal in the home, as some countries have already done.
 
less.

crime in the US today is now lower than it has been since the mid-1960s, perhaps even earlier.

i think violence in entertainment isn't really violence, it's intensity. i think audiences demand more intensity in their entertainment, and violence is the fastest way to create intensity (just like the fastest way to create some kind of dramatic conflict is through sex). so it's lazy, and perhaps it degrades us all, and if i had kids i'd be very concerned about the violence in the media not because i fear they'd be violent but because i fear they'd simply find it upsetting, but there's no evidence that i've seen that violent media makes people more violent. look at Japan.
 
less.

crime in the US today is now lower than it has been since the mid-1960s, perhaps even earlier.

But that's just choosing your comparison to suit your argument. The mid to late '60s was a violent and turbulent time. If America now is less violent - and I haven't seen the stats - then that's really no big achievement.
 
But that's just choosing your comparison to suit your argument. The mid to late '60s was a violent and turbulent time. If America now is less violent - and I haven't seen the stats - then that's really no big achievement.



crime in the US peaked in the late-1980s and early 1990s at the peak of the crack epidemic. i think the murder rate in New York was at it's peak in 1981.

much of the violence in the US that grew in the 1970s and 1980s came from the riots of the late 1960s, at least in part. it's also far more complex than that.

but, yes, from my understanding, violent crime in the US is much lower now than it was 20 years ago.

just a quick look at my city: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.

of note: violent crime incidents in 1995: 2,661.4; in 2008: 1,437.7, a decrease of 46%.
 
Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

US_Violent_Crime_Rate.jpg
 
we live in an age where people will find data to support their argument

when I was in school in the 70's we would have to go to a library and get more credible reference sources

these days anyone can seek out supporting evidence

wiki is very unreliable

from that wiki site;

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm

that suggest murder rate is down. 5.4 lowest it's been since 1966

robbery rate went up, drug related?

these are reported crimes to FBI?
 
I see a paradox in modern American society. As a predominant cultural value we seem less tolerant of violence of any sort than at any other time in our history. Our children are taught that violence is never an acceptable means of solving problems, we wring our hands over bullying, corporal punishment is now considered tantamount to abuse. Yet, at the same time the level of violence in our entertainment has reached unprecedented levels. Often the same people that will vehemently argue against schoolyard violence have no problem viewing (or having their young children) view the latest slasher flick. And violence continues--gang violence, the kid killed over a pair of shoes, school shootings, serial killers--things that were unheard of generations ago. War continues, as it always has, but we are far less tolerant of high casualty counts then we once were. We are horrified by the numbers of our soldier killed in Iraq while more died in about 30 minutes of the battle of Antietam during the Civil War.

Interesting stuff, Sean.

I don't think America is any more or less violent than it used to be. It's just with the rise of the Internet and sites like Youtube, with 24/7 cable news, with 'embedded' reporting during war...we are all much more aware of the suffering that goes on in the world. It feels closer to home. If someone wanted to know how the Israeli flotilla raid really went down, you can have video footage at your fingertips in about 3 seconds. Airplanes crashing into skyscrapers? About 3 seconds.

And somehow most of us have been able to draw a distinction between the 'real' stuff, and the commercialization of violence that we can't seem to get enough of. I'm thinking of the opening scene of NCIS every week, movies like the Saw series, popular rap lyrics, realistic WWII shooter games like Call of Honor, etc. Humans will always have a dark, aggressive side...maybe we just prefer to express it digitally these days.

Gang violence and public shooting sprees tie in somewhere here, I'm just not sure where :confused: Violence as entertainment is being marketed harder than ever, and I'm certainly not suggesting that most of it be censored. But maybe it sets off some of these mental cases that society has always had.
 
Interesting responses so far. I don't really have any answers to my questions--I'm just ruminating on the topic, really--and I don't have any particular agenda regarding media violence or anything. I just thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss--and so far at least, it is.

I think there's something in human beings that has always found violence entertaining. I know when I was a kid my siblings and I found ways to play "war" and "cops and robbers" even though my mom wouldn't let us own toy guns or watch violent films. I still love laser tag or any kind of war type games. I guess in the old days, people got their violence kicks by actually going off to fight in the wars (and the really sick ones that today would be serial killers just became really great warriors?). So in that sense it's perhaps better that we redirect our violent tendencies towards violent movies and shooter games where no one actually gets killed?
 
I think there's something in human beings that has always found violence entertaining. I know when I was a kid my siblings and I found ways to play "war" and "cops and robbers" even though my mom wouldn't let us own toy guns or watch violent films. I still love laser tag or any kind of war type games. I guess in the old days, people got their violence kicks by actually going off to fight in the wars (and the really sick ones that today would be serial killers just became really great warriors?). So in that sense it's perhaps better that we redirect our violent tendencies towards violent movies and shooter games where no one actually gets killed?

I think there's something in human beings that has always found violence entertaining

Hmmm. Or maybe there's something in young male human beings that finds violence appealing.

I remember re-enacting the Heysel stadium riots ( Heysel Stadium disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) with a few friends. We just got together an arsenal of plastic coshes and just fucked them at each other across someone's garden. I remember seeing the riots live on tv - and it was genuinely distressing, but I have to admit, it was also compulsive viewing - but re-enacting them a few days later was hilarious, one of my happiest childhood memories. I got nasty cut on my head from the sharp end of a cosh - and that also, was hilarious. It was a proud moment - the scars of battle.

I would argue that the normal and natural tendency for young males to play fight is much, much less harmful that the cynical designs of the military industrial complex. A bunch of immensely wealthy, elderly white male, Anglo-Saxon bastards sitting around tables deciding how the world should be run - most of whom have never come close to fighting in an actual war - this is much worse than the violence committed by any soccer hooligan, drug dealer, crack addict, serial killer, etc.
 
Um, yeah, it was basically an op-ed.

Have you read the rest of this thread?



"Um, yeah, it was basically an op-ed."


You think the article about the myth of Old West violence was just the opinion of the writer?

Would you like to share what was the writer's opinion and what was fact?


Take care
 
Would you like to share what was the writer's opinion and what was fact?


Take care

Where were the stats?

When we look at crime today, we look at arrests vs convictions, everything is divided up amongst categories, etc.

What kind of data do we have from that time period? Where are the arrest records? Was domestic abuse even recorded? How about rape?

I'm sure you agree these things existed.

Let's apply some logic, shall we?

Take care...
 
Yeeeeeeeeeeah...go read up on the Native Americans living in the days of the "Wild West" and see what they have to say about how common violence was.

I think there's something in human beings that has always found violence entertaining.

*Nods* Although...I don't know if it's that we find it "entertaining" so much as it's our way of confronting our fears. Perhaps people watch shows about someone committing a violent act or being the victim of a violent act and think, "If that were me, what would I do? How would I act? What could I do to stop this from being me?"

Since the beginning of mankind, violence has been a constant. Something inherent in our genetic makeup, perhaps? Certainly most people in this world are not going to go on murder sprees or anything like that in their lifetimes, but I fully believe that given the right circumstances, anyone's capable of committing some sort of violent act (a mother fighting someone who's hurting her child, a soldier shooting an enemy combatant so he himself won't die, a druggie desperate for their next fix, etc., etc.). I think some of the violent tendencies are there from birth, and some people may have more of a propensity for it than others. Certainly nurture factors in, of course, but how big a role does nature play?

So in that sense it's perhaps better that we redirect our violent tendencies towards violent movies and shooter games where no one actually gets killed?

This is the line of thinking I go with, yes. An example would be the soldiers in the current wars playing war-themed games-I know some people have actually recommended they do that. Better they take their aggressions out through a game than come home and go crazy on real people.

Angela
 
Yeeeeeeeeeeah...go read up on the Native Americans living in the days of the "Wild West" and see what they have to say about how common violence was.

As I was reading that article I was half-expecting it to proclaim that in general whites and Indians got along just fine and there were only a few isolated incidences of Americans running Native Americans off their land. They never did go that far (though they did seem to imply that whites and Native Americans merely "traded" until settlers found it easier to call in the cavalry which was sitting around twiddling it's thumbs).

Re: Iron Horse's summation that we live in a less moral age--I've always had an issue with that conclusion. Personally, as a black man, I'd rather live with today's morals than 100 years ago with the morals this country lived by then. A hundred years ago (or less) I'd have been strung from the nearest tree just for appearing in public with my wife. So don't bother me with nonsense about how yesteryear was a more "moral" time. What a lot of crap.

Although...I don't know if it's that we find it "entertaining" so much as it's our way of confronting our fears. Perhaps people watch shows about someone committing a violent act or being the victim of a violent act and think, "If that were me, what would I do? How would I act? What could I do to stop this from being me?"

Well, at least for me, it was mainly that I found it entertaining. I wasn't confronting any fears or asking what I would do if it were me.
 
Wondering if we live in a more or less violent age seems to be a bit of a difficult question to answer. (I'm not sure how we're defining violence -- violent crime? domestic abuse? spanking?) Not sure what the causes for that may be -- points may be well made that with the advent of violent video games, people have a healthier outlet for aggression, or that with the rise in American military action around the world, those with violent tendencies are channeling that energy elsewhere. More effective policing? Better gun control laws? Hugging?
 
Wondering if we live in a more or less violent age seems to be a bit of a difficult question to answer. (I'm not sure how we're defining violence -- violent crime? domestic abuse? spanking?) Not sure what the causes for that may be -- points may be well made that with the advent of violent video games, people have a healthier outlet for aggression, or that with the rise in American military action around the world, those with violent tendencies are channeling that energy elsewhere. More effective policing? Better gun control laws? Hugging?

I guess I'm thinking about two things--One, our attitude towards violence of all kinds--are we more or less tolerant of it. And secondly, is that reflected in accompanying increase or decrease in actual acts of violence of all kinds.
 
I guess I'm thinking about two things--One, our attitude towards violence of all kinds--are we more or less tolerant of it. And secondly, is that reflected in accompanying increase or decrease in actual acts of violence of all kinds.

In thinking about the statistical trend downwards in overall violence, is there a way to differentiate statistically between garden-variety violence and more extreme forms? Curious to see if that has any involvement.
 
crime in the US peaked in the late-1980s and early 1990s at the peak of the crack epidemic. i think the murder rate in New York was at it's peak in 1981.

much of the violence in the US that grew in the 1970s and 1980s came from the riots of the late 1960s, at least in part. it's also far more complex than that.

but, yes, from my understanding, violent crime in the US is much lower now than it was 20 years ago.

just a quick look at my city: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.

of note: violent crime incidents in 1995: 2,661.4; in 2008: 1,437.7, a decrease of 46%.

These statistics are not simply a representation of a lower crime trend from the high base of the 1960s as financeguy suggested.

Crime in the US, between the end of the red scare/Prohibition(early 30s) and the early 1960s was EXTREMELY LOW. It was the post war boom, the immigration panics and riots, the bank runs, moral panics, mass violent strikes, etc were all well in the past.

What happened?

Well, statistically, males between 18 and 25 commit the majority of the crimes in most societies, especially so in the United States.

Well, we had the baby boom start in the late 40s and go through to the mid 60s. By the time we get to the mid 60s, the first of the baby boom born immediately after the war reached that 18-25 age group, the group that is probably 85% law abiding compared to say, 99% for every other age group.

The more 18-25 yr old males in the population, the percentage of screwballs becomes a much greater minority than usual and crime increases. Had nothing to do with the Warren court or the Civil Rights movement as widely suggested.

The maturing of the Baby boom continued obviously in the 1970s, and when combined with alcoholism and heroin abuse that became common in this time period, we had the first of the "twin peaks" in violent crime around 1973. The other peak was of course what Irvine mentioned, the crack epidemic of the mid 80s to early 90s.

Look up any major city, you will see murder rates peaked twice- once around 1972-75 and again around 1989-1992.

Crime has dropped since then as an overall trend in the United States, with the biggest and most drastic reductions being violent crime.

I think the reason why people perceive us to be so much more violent today is 2 fold:

1.)The media- they're everywhere, 24/7 and they know people love these kind of stories. Look at the Natalee Holloway thread, you hear more and more about these cases. It is easy to forget with all the media attention on this case(and rightfully so, not arguing against covering it) that this story is as rare as it is appealing. Most murders- the hip hop thug icing, the mob rub out, the homeless hooker strangled by a client, never even make the news and people do not care very much because they do not fear this kind of crime. It has nothing to do with them and is unlikely to unless they get in with the wrong crowd.

Random violent crimes, as rare as they are, scare the hell out of us because they go against the trend and could happen to any of us. I went to school in Burlington, Vermont. Back in 2006, a girl I had met a few times,(she was an acquaintance of my roomate)who attended the University of Vermont was raped and strangled by a stranger. She had been out in Burlington, probably the safest place in the US with a population over 50,000, with friends and separated from them to try and meet up with another friend. When her phone died, she borrowed a guy's phone to call and tell her friends she was going back to campus. That was the last anyone heard of her, and the last anyone saw of her was on a jewelry store surveillance camera, walking up the sidewalk with the guy who lent her the phone. He killed her. Only 2 weeks after I first met her, I was SHOCKED BEYOND BELIEF. From my brief experience, and countless stories of those who knew her better, this horrible crime could not have happened to a nicer, more caring person:

Murder of Michelle Gardner-Quinn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It took a week to find her body and in that week, the entire area was in PANIC, there were FBI cars everywhere, constant news reports, all the handicap buttons to open doors from the outside at my school were removed, etc.

So this huge diversion off topic serves to make a point. When we see the sheer random brutality of a crime over and over again on the news, we think it is more widespread than it actually is. In reality, I would bet these kind of random murders, local scumbag rapes and kills affluent white college student, were about as common in the 60, 70s, 80s and 90s as they are today.

2.)People are confusing boldness or brutality with numbers.

I have no statistics here, but it seems that people are becoming a bit more twisted in how they commit crimes and where they commit crimes. Take guns in schools. Gangs are now shooting rivals at school where they used to do it 10 blocks away 2 hours after school ended. Is it any different? No. It just gets more attention because school is allegedly safe.

Chicago's recent troubles are a great example of this. The place was a killing field in the mid 70s and late 80s/early 90s, had almost 1000 murders a couple of those years! They have had nowhere near that since then, but the violence has moved into schools and on school property, and the perps are getting bolder, so people think that means it is happening in greater numbers.

As for the sick and twisted part, it seems we have more of the guy who kills someone then cuts them up with a chainsaw for fun, or cuts their testicles off and sticks them in their family's mail box, etc today than we did before. That shocks us, and rightfully so, but it does not mean the crime is more widespread.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of this is to say nothing of the fact that before the push for the Violence Against Women Act in the early 1990s, crimes like domestic violence, marital rape, date rape and even boyfriend/girlfriend in college rape were widespread and ignored at best and tolerated at worst. Women have been empowered to speak out since then, felt it was ok, that it wasn't their fault, etc, and these kind of crimes have dropped dramatically.

People think we were so safe in the 50s, well the victims of the husband who beat the shit out of his wife when he came home drunk and the 30 yr old attorney who raped the college co-ed he was seeing on the side would certainly disagree.

I don't care what your politics are, get Vice President Biden's book at the library or just walk into the book store and leaf through it(don't buy it).

Find the part where he talks about the Violence Against Women Act that he and Orrin Hatch(R-UT) wrote and fought for. It will open your eyes as it did mine. I took a lot of criminal justice courses and my best friend's Dad is a former large suburb with big city problems Police Chief and I did not know the half of how extensive this problem was!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Long story short, media and the increasingly twisted nature of individual crimes and boldness of some perps has made a declining raw number trend look like it is going through the roof.

As always, U2387 is not concise but hopes he made some sense!
 
As I was reading that article I was half-expecting it to proclaim that in general whites and Indians got along just fine and there were only a few isolated incidences of Americans running Native Americans off their land. They never did go that far (though they did seem to imply that whites and Native Americans merely "traded" until settlers found it easier to call in the cavalry which was sitting around twiddling it's thumbs).

No kidding. The way that article made it sound, the 1800s were just peaches and cream across this country at large on all sorts of fronts. I mean, come on, it wasn't like there was a massive war that broke out halfway through and divided the nation or anything like that...oh...

Re: Iron Horse's summation that we live in a less moral age--I've always had an issue with that conclusion. Personally, as a black man, I'd rather live with today's morals than 100 years ago with the morals this country lived by then. A hundred years ago (or less) I'd have been strung from the nearest tree just for appearing in public with my wife. So don't bother me with nonsense about how yesteryear was a more "moral" time. What a lot of crap.

Nicely put. The whole "Well, back in my day, yada, yada, yada..." argument never works. Rose-colored glasses and nostalgia may be appealing, but there's a downside to that mindset, too. A lot of ugliness gets ignored that way.

Well, at least for me, it was mainly that I found it entertaining. I wasn't confronting any fears or asking what I would do if it were me.

Ah. Eh, I didn't mean to deny your argument, as you're certainly right about that, too. Seeing the "bad guy" get his revenge, the adrenaline rush, the power...yeah. Definitely enticing to some people. Was just theorizing other possible reasons.

Angela
 
Nicely put. The whole "Well, back in my day, yada, yada, yada..." argument never works. Rose-colored glasses and nostalgia may be appealing, but there's a downside to that mindset, too. A lot of ugliness gets ignored that way.

Yes, very nicely put and thanks for sharing, maycocksean!

Also, people do overlook that an organization considered flat out immoral and criminal, the KKK was perfectly legal and legitimate with backers in public office not too long ago.

What my Economics Professor who is 65 told us sums up my views on the "back in my day.... argument."

He would always say: "Ahhh, the good old days. The good old days that weren't so good. Don't ever let anyone tell you how moral and righteous they were back in their day. We certainly weren't- we did exactly what you kids do in college- we drank underage, had fake ID's, conned our way into strip clubs, didn't do our work, etc. I had a 4.0 GPA- 2.0 the 1st semester and 2.0 the 2nd semester! There are no new sins, just new sinners."

Statistics and experience should tell us he's just about 100% right.
 
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