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Old 06-06-2010, 11:01 PM   #16
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This is based on?

Why is it that those that are looking at studies are not agreeing with this?


Did you take take time to read the article I posted?

Please post links to "those" and their "studies" not agreeing with this.


Take care
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:07 PM   #17
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Did you take take time to read the article I posted?

Please post links to "those" and their "studies" not agreeing with this.


Take care
Um, yeah, it was basically an op-ed.

Have you read the rest of this thread?
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:15 PM   #18
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Define "morality".
"Lack of morality" = "too many minorities"
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:18 PM   #19
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Um, yeah, it was basically an op-ed.

Have you read the rest of this thread?


"Um, yeah, it was basically an op-ed."


You think the article about the myth of Old West violence was just the opinion of the writer?

Would you like to share what was the writer's opinion and what was fact?


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Old 06-06-2010, 11:24 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post

Would you like to share what was the writer's opinion and what was fact?


Take care
Where were the stats?

When we look at crime today, we look at arrests vs convictions, everything is divided up amongst categories, etc.

What kind of data do we have from that time period? Where are the arrest records? Was domestic abuse even recorded? How about rape?

I'm sure you agree these things existed.

Let's apply some logic, shall we?

Take care...
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:24 AM   #21
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Yeeeeeeeeeeah...go read up on the Native Americans living in the days of the "Wild West" and see what they have to say about how common violence was.

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I think there's something in human beings that has always found violence entertaining.
*Nods* Although...I don't know if it's that we find it "entertaining" so much as it's our way of confronting our fears. Perhaps people watch shows about someone committing a violent act or being the victim of a violent act and think, "If that were me, what would I do? How would I act? What could I do to stop this from being me?"

Since the beginning of mankind, violence has been a constant. Something inherent in our genetic makeup, perhaps? Certainly most people in this world are not going to go on murder sprees or anything like that in their lifetimes, but I fully believe that given the right circumstances, anyone's capable of committing some sort of violent act (a mother fighting someone who's hurting her child, a soldier shooting an enemy combatant so he himself won't die, a druggie desperate for their next fix, etc., etc.). I think some of the violent tendencies are there from birth, and some people may have more of a propensity for it than others. Certainly nurture factors in, of course, but how big a role does nature play?

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So in that sense it's perhaps better that we redirect our violent tendencies towards violent movies and shooter games where no one actually gets killed?
This is the line of thinking I go with, yes. An example would be the soldiers in the current wars playing war-themed games-I know some people have actually recommended they do that. Better they take their aggressions out through a game than come home and go crazy on real people.

Angela
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Old 06-07-2010, 02:28 PM   #22
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Yeeeeeeeeeeah...go read up on the Native Americans living in the days of the "Wild West" and see what they have to say about how common violence was.
As I was reading that article I was half-expecting it to proclaim that in general whites and Indians got along just fine and there were only a few isolated incidences of Americans running Native Americans off their land. They never did go that far (though they did seem to imply that whites and Native Americans merely "traded" until settlers found it easier to call in the cavalry which was sitting around twiddling it's thumbs).

Re: Iron Horse's summation that we live in a less moral age--I've always had an issue with that conclusion. Personally, as a black man, I'd rather live with today's morals than 100 years ago with the morals this country lived by then. A hundred years ago (or less) I'd have been strung from the nearest tree just for appearing in public with my wife. So don't bother me with nonsense about how yesteryear was a more "moral" time. What a lot of crap.

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Although...I don't know if it's that we find it "entertaining" so much as it's our way of confronting our fears. Perhaps people watch shows about someone committing a violent act or being the victim of a violent act and think, "If that were me, what would I do? How would I act? What could I do to stop this from being me?"
Well, at least for me, it was mainly that I found it entertaining. I wasn't confronting any fears or asking what I would do if it were me.
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Old 06-07-2010, 02:43 PM   #23
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So don't bother me with nonsense about how yesteryear was a more "moral" time. What a lot of crap.


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Old 06-07-2010, 02:45 PM   #24
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Wondering if we live in a more or less violent age seems to be a bit of a difficult question to answer. (I'm not sure how we're defining violence -- violent crime? domestic abuse? spanking?) Not sure what the causes for that may be -- points may be well made that with the advent of violent video games, people have a healthier outlet for aggression, or that with the rise in American military action around the world, those with violent tendencies are channeling that energy elsewhere. More effective policing? Better gun control laws? Hugging?
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Old 06-07-2010, 02:48 PM   #25
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Wondering if we live in a more or less violent age seems to be a bit of a difficult question to answer. (I'm not sure how we're defining violence -- violent crime? domestic abuse? spanking?) Not sure what the causes for that may be -- points may be well made that with the advent of violent video games, people have a healthier outlet for aggression, or that with the rise in American military action around the world, those with violent tendencies are channeling that energy elsewhere. More effective policing? Better gun control laws? Hugging?
I guess I'm thinking about two things--One, our attitude towards violence of all kinds--are we more or less tolerant of it. And secondly, is that reflected in accompanying increase or decrease in actual acts of violence of all kinds.
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Old 06-07-2010, 02:55 PM   #26
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I guess I'm thinking about two things--One, our attitude towards violence of all kinds--are we more or less tolerant of it. And secondly, is that reflected in accompanying increase or decrease in actual acts of violence of all kinds.
In thinking about the statistical trend downwards in overall violence, is there a way to differentiate statistically between garden-variety violence and more extreme forms? Curious to see if that has any involvement.
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Old 06-07-2010, 04:05 PM   #27
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crime in the US peaked in the late-1980s and early 1990s at the peak of the crack epidemic. i think the murder rate in New York was at it's peak in 1981.

much of the violence in the US that grew in the 1970s and 1980s came from the riots of the late 1960s, at least in part. it's also far more complex than that.

but, yes, from my understanding, violent crime in the US is much lower now than it was 20 years ago.

just a quick look at my city: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.

of note: violent crime incidents in 1995: 2,661.4; in 2008: 1,437.7, a decrease of 46%.
These statistics are not simply a representation of a lower crime trend from the high base of the 1960s as financeguy suggested.

Crime in the US, between the end of the red scare/Prohibition(early 30s) and the early 1960s was EXTREMELY LOW. It was the post war boom, the immigration panics and riots, the bank runs, moral panics, mass violent strikes, etc were all well in the past.

What happened?

Well, statistically, males between 18 and 25 commit the majority of the crimes in most societies, especially so in the United States.

Well, we had the baby boom start in the late 40s and go through to the mid 60s. By the time we get to the mid 60s, the first of the baby boom born immediately after the war reached that 18-25 age group, the group that is probably 85% law abiding compared to say, 99% for every other age group.

The more 18-25 yr old males in the population, the percentage of screwballs becomes a much greater minority than usual and crime increases. Had nothing to do with the Warren court or the Civil Rights movement as widely suggested.

The maturing of the Baby boom continued obviously in the 1970s, and when combined with alcoholism and heroin abuse that became common in this time period, we had the first of the "twin peaks" in violent crime around 1973. The other peak was of course what Irvine mentioned, the crack epidemic of the mid 80s to early 90s.

Look up any major city, you will see murder rates peaked twice- once around 1972-75 and again around 1989-1992.

Crime has dropped since then as an overall trend in the United States, with the biggest and most drastic reductions being violent crime.

I think the reason why people perceive us to be so much more violent today is 2 fold:

1.)The media- they're everywhere, 24/7 and they know people love these kind of stories. Look at the Natalee Holloway thread, you hear more and more about these cases. It is easy to forget with all the media attention on this case(and rightfully so, not arguing against covering it) that this story is as rare as it is appealing. Most murders- the hip hop thug icing, the mob rub out, the homeless hooker strangled by a client, never even make the news and people do not care very much because they do not fear this kind of crime. It has nothing to do with them and is unlikely to unless they get in with the wrong crowd.

Random violent crimes, as rare as they are, scare the hell out of us because they go against the trend and could happen to any of us. I went to school in Burlington, Vermont. Back in 2006, a girl I had met a few times,(she was an acquaintance of my roomate)who attended the University of Vermont was raped and strangled by a stranger. She had been out in Burlington, probably the safest place in the US with a population over 50,000, with friends and separated from them to try and meet up with another friend. When her phone died, she borrowed a guy's phone to call and tell her friends she was going back to campus. That was the last anyone heard of her, and the last anyone saw of her was on a jewelry store surveillance camera, walking up the sidewalk with the guy who lent her the phone. He killed her. Only 2 weeks after I first met her, I was SHOCKED BEYOND BELIEF. From my brief experience, and countless stories of those who knew her better, this horrible crime could not have happened to a nicer, more caring person:

Murder of Michelle Gardner-Quinn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It took a week to find her body and in that week, the entire area was in PANIC, there were FBI cars everywhere, constant news reports, all the handicap buttons to open doors from the outside at my school were removed, etc.

So this huge diversion off topic serves to make a point. When we see the sheer random brutality of a crime over and over again on the news, we think it is more widespread than it actually is. In reality, I would bet these kind of random murders, local scumbag rapes and kills affluent white college student, were about as common in the 60, 70s, 80s and 90s as they are today.

2.)People are confusing boldness or brutality with numbers.

I have no statistics here, but it seems that people are becoming a bit more twisted in how they commit crimes and where they commit crimes. Take guns in schools. Gangs are now shooting rivals at school where they used to do it 10 blocks away 2 hours after school ended. Is it any different? No. It just gets more attention because school is allegedly safe.

Chicago's recent troubles are a great example of this. The place was a killing field in the mid 70s and late 80s/early 90s, had almost 1000 murders a couple of those years! They have had nowhere near that since then, but the violence has moved into schools and on school property, and the perps are getting bolder, so people think that means it is happening in greater numbers.

As for the sick and twisted part, it seems we have more of the guy who kills someone then cuts them up with a chainsaw for fun, or cuts their testicles off and sticks them in their family's mail box, etc today than we did before. That shocks us, and rightfully so, but it does not mean the crime is more widespread.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of this is to say nothing of the fact that before the push for the Violence Against Women Act in the early 1990s, crimes like domestic violence, marital rape, date rape and even boyfriend/girlfriend in college rape were widespread and ignored at best and tolerated at worst. Women have been empowered to speak out since then, felt it was ok, that it wasn't their fault, etc, and these kind of crimes have dropped dramatically.

People think we were so safe in the 50s, well the victims of the husband who beat the shit out of his wife when he came home drunk and the 30 yr old attorney who raped the college co-ed he was seeing on the side would certainly disagree.

I don't care what your politics are, get Vice President Biden's book at the library or just walk into the book store and leaf through it(don't buy it).

Find the part where he talks about the Violence Against Women Act that he and Orrin Hatch(R-UT) wrote and fought for. It will open your eyes as it did mine. I took a lot of criminal justice courses and my best friend's Dad is a former large suburb with big city problems Police Chief and I did not know the half of how extensive this problem was!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Long story short, media and the increasingly twisted nature of individual crimes and boldness of some perps has made a declining raw number trend look like it is going through the roof.

As always, U2387 is not concise but hopes he made some sense!
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Old 06-07-2010, 04:09 PM   #28
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As I was reading that article I was half-expecting it to proclaim that in general whites and Indians got along just fine and there were only a few isolated incidences of Americans running Native Americans off their land. They never did go that far (though they did seem to imply that whites and Native Americans merely "traded" until settlers found it easier to call in the cavalry which was sitting around twiddling it's thumbs).
No kidding. The way that article made it sound, the 1800s were just peaches and cream across this country at large on all sorts of fronts. I mean, come on, it wasn't like there was a massive war that broke out halfway through and divided the nation or anything like that...oh...

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Re: Iron Horse's summation that we live in a less moral age--I've always had an issue with that conclusion. Personally, as a black man, I'd rather live with today's morals than 100 years ago with the morals this country lived by then. A hundred years ago (or less) I'd have been strung from the nearest tree just for appearing in public with my wife. So don't bother me with nonsense about how yesteryear was a more "moral" time. What a lot of crap.
Nicely put. The whole "Well, back in my day, yada, yada, yada..." argument never works. Rose-colored glasses and nostalgia may be appealing, but there's a downside to that mindset, too. A lot of ugliness gets ignored that way.

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Well, at least for me, it was mainly that I found it entertaining. I wasn't confronting any fears or asking what I would do if it were me.
Ah. Eh, I didn't mean to deny your argument, as you're certainly right about that, too. Seeing the "bad guy" get his revenge, the adrenaline rush, the power...yeah. Definitely enticing to some people. Was just theorizing other possible reasons.

Angela
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Old 06-07-2010, 04:22 PM   #29
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Nicely put. The whole "Well, back in my day, yada, yada, yada..." argument never works. Rose-colored glasses and nostalgia may be appealing, but there's a downside to that mindset, too. A lot of ugliness gets ignored that way.
Yes, very nicely put and thanks for sharing, maycocksean!

Also, people do overlook that an organization considered flat out immoral and criminal, the KKK was perfectly legal and legitimate with backers in public office not too long ago.

What my Economics Professor who is 65 told us sums up my views on the "back in my day.... argument."

He would always say: "Ahhh, the good old days. The good old days that weren't so good. Don't ever let anyone tell you how moral and righteous they were back in their day. We certainly weren't- we did exactly what you kids do in college- we drank underage, had fake ID's, conned our way into strip clubs, didn't do our work, etc. I had a 4.0 GPA- 2.0 the 1st semester and 2.0 the 2nd semester! There are no new sins, just new sinners."

Statistics and experience should tell us he's just about 100% right.
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Old 06-07-2010, 04:42 PM   #30
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maybe it's to do with more lesbian parents?

Kids with Lesbian Parents May Do Better Than Their Peers - TIME

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