AEON
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
With ISIS taking over large parts of the country, what should the US do?
Iraq: What to do?
- Thread starter AEON
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
We should not listen to the war criminals who created this mess in the first place.
Ghastly as it may seem, as of right now, my attitude is that middle eastern democracy will be neither liberal or pluralistic. There are deep histories at play that we can't begin to understand. They may need to settle things on their own terms.
I appreciate how relatively calm the White House has been.
Contain it, offer humanitarian aid, but stay the fuck out.
Ghastly as it may seem, as of right now, my attitude is that middle eastern democracy will be neither liberal or pluralistic. There are deep histories at play that we can't begin to understand. They may need to settle things on their own terms.
I appreciate how relatively calm the White House has been.
Contain it, offer humanitarian aid, but stay the fuck out.
U2DMfan
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
I could see us backing an Iraqi government worth backing...at least in terms of diplomatic or economic support or even drones. But this Iraqi govt isn't it.
Backing this one (hostile to Sunnis) is about like aligning ourselves with Iran and that asshole al-Assad in Syria at the same time.
Getting involved in this in any way is probably like picking sides in a civil war. Horrific idea. And the idea that all these Bushie neocons are out their trumpeting our military involvement (once again) is endorsement enough to stay as much out as possible.
I think we should do what we've done. Send troops to the embassy.
If/when the shit hits the fan - get them out of there and wash our hands of it.
Backing this one (hostile to Sunnis) is about like aligning ourselves with Iran and that asshole al-Assad in Syria at the same time.
Getting involved in this in any way is probably like picking sides in a civil war. Horrific idea. And the idea that all these Bushie neocons are out their trumpeting our military involvement (once again) is endorsement enough to stay as much out as possible.
I think we should do what we've done. Send troops to the embassy.
If/when the shit hits the fan - get them out of there and wash our hands of it.
Galeongirl
Galeonbroad
Honestly? Get the fuck out. Leave them to fight for their ideals. It's not worth risking the lives of so many men once again when there's such a deep hate between the people living in the country. We don't understand their ideals, they don't understand ours. Why meddle and play big brother when you've no control of anything at all?
prbiker15
Blue Crack Addict
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
Yes, but the oil!
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
This is just a distraction from Benghazi.
Cheney, Bill Kristol and Paul Bremer have all coming out bashing Obama for mishandling Iraq. The sheer chutzpah is pretty breathtaking.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
they're trying to fix a narrative whereby "the surge" gave us "victory" in Iraq and now it's fallen apart because Obama.
deep
Blue Crack Addict
Give Iraq to Syria
No more Iraq problem.
No more Iraq problem.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
Why isn't Dick Cheney in jail?
DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
deep
Blue Crack Addict
Because even jails have standards.
DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
He should be in that hole Ras Al-Ghul was put in.
Vlad n U 2
Blue Crack Addict
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Buried alive with a torchlight and a mobile phone with no credit on it. 
bono_212
Blue Crack Distributor
At least he'll have Candy Crush.
That's a bit misleading. <300 troops to secure the US embassy and about the same to help train and strategize with Iraqi forces (aka, no direct combat roles), and the option of air strikes is being held "in reserve" - so it's not like we're going in with guns blazing.
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DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
It's really uncanny how similar this is to Vietnam at this point.
US puppet government suddenly invaded by "the bad guys" from the north (1960: Communists/2014: Islamists), the army crumbles to the point where it is incapable of defending itself, so the US sends "advisers" (MACV-SOG) and starts with air strikes. I truly won't be shocked if there's an incident where the US Embassy in Baghdad is attacked to provide justification for actual combat troops (Gulf of Tonkin) - although I don't think Obama would go quite this far, I wouldn't put it past some rogue general or administration staffers to set up.
The US is so deep into Iraq that the only way out at this point seems to be to wash their hands of the whole thing and leave the country to its own fate. That won't ever happen, so be prepared for war in Iraq for our entire lives, folks. It is genuinely only a matter of time until the country becomes another Syria or Afghanistan, because ISIS and all its like-minded paramilitary friends won't stop as they know they can eventually win simply by attrition, US politics and sheer numbers (kinda like the Viet Cong).
At least Iran seems to be concerned to the point that they are willing to actually do something rather than sit by and watch ISIS take over Iraq and start another Iran-Iraq War.
US puppet government suddenly invaded by "the bad guys" from the north (1960: Communists/2014: Islamists), the army crumbles to the point where it is incapable of defending itself, so the US sends "advisers" (MACV-SOG) and starts with air strikes. I truly won't be shocked if there's an incident where the US Embassy in Baghdad is attacked to provide justification for actual combat troops (Gulf of Tonkin) - although I don't think Obama would go quite this far, I wouldn't put it past some rogue general or administration staffers to set up.
The US is so deep into Iraq that the only way out at this point seems to be to wash their hands of the whole thing and leave the country to its own fate. That won't ever happen, so be prepared for war in Iraq for our entire lives, folks. It is genuinely only a matter of time until the country becomes another Syria or Afghanistan, because ISIS and all its like-minded paramilitary friends won't stop as they know they can eventually win simply by attrition, US politics and sheer numbers (kinda like the Viet Cong).
At least Iran seems to be concerned to the point that they are willing to actually do something rather than sit by and watch ISIS take over Iraq and start another Iran-Iraq War.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
The truth, though, is that there is no Iraq. It was invented by some guys in London looking at maps.
According to Christopher Hitchens, Iraq was created by a women named Gertrude Bell.
The Woman Who Made Iraq - Christopher Hitchens - The Atlantic
The Woman Who Made Iraq - Christopher Hitchens - The Atlantic
DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
Along with the entire rest of the Middle East.
The only hope I think the US has here is to make an alliance with the Kurds (ideally with the Iraqi government, but I doubt that will ever happen) to use the peshmerga fighters with US drone/air support to decisively defeat ISIS in the north, on condition that the Kurds finally get their own state in northern Iraq. Turkey would like it as there would be a mass exodus of Kurds to Kurdistan, although ISIS being crushed also would be a huge win for Assad in Syria.
That's really the only situation I can conceive that would stop the ISIS advance without requiring US combat troops on the ground.
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
First early signs of ISIS and Ba'ath remnants splitting? http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/22/w...partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimesworld&_r=0
Greatest irony anyway, considering that the Ba'ath party has always been anti-fundamentalism and saw islamism as a threat.
In Kurdistan we are now dealing with another influx of up to 500,000 people from the city of Mossul as well as the Nineveh, Anbar and Diyala regions. This on top of about 250,000 Syrian refugees. Both the IDPs and the Syrian refugees are going to stay (just consider that for decades now several thousands of Turkish and Iranian refugees have been living in the Kurdish region with no end in sight). It's straining the economy and at the moment is probably a greater threat to the stability of the Kurdish region than ISIS. Turkey is less likely to be an opponent to Kurdish independence. They are happy as long as they have a stable trading partner. Also, they do not fear the Kurdish movement inside Turkey that much anymore.
ISIS, on the other hand, though at the moment trying to not engage with the peshmerga, do have an absolutist ideology. Should they get a foothold in the region, the Kurdish will have to fortify their borders even more than they already do.
Greatest irony anyway, considering that the Ba'ath party has always been anti-fundamentalism and saw islamism as a threat.
In Kurdistan we are now dealing with another influx of up to 500,000 people from the city of Mossul as well as the Nineveh, Anbar and Diyala regions. This on top of about 250,000 Syrian refugees. Both the IDPs and the Syrian refugees are going to stay (just consider that for decades now several thousands of Turkish and Iranian refugees have been living in the Kurdish region with no end in sight). It's straining the economy and at the moment is probably a greater threat to the stability of the Kurdish region than ISIS. Turkey is less likely to be an opponent to Kurdish independence. They are happy as long as they have a stable trading partner. Also, they do not fear the Kurdish movement inside Turkey that much anymore.
ISIS, on the other hand, though at the moment trying to not engage with the peshmerga, do have an absolutist ideology. Should they get a foothold in the region, the Kurdish will have to fortify their borders even more than they already do.
Dfit00
War Child
It's a US interest to keep exploiting Iraq to take advantage of its oil so the politicians can stay rich.
the iron horse
Rock n' Roll Doggie
I never agreed with Bush's plan to "democratize" Irag. He failed to
understand the religious differences among the people. It was doomed
from the start.
Joe Biden was right in 2006 for proposing a “soft partition” of Iraq, in which Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds would have their own autonomous regions, overseen by a “viable central government in Baghdad.”
That was a much better idea and I think it would have worked.
understand the religious differences among the people. It was doomed
from the start.
Joe Biden was right in 2006 for proposing a “soft partition” of Iraq, in which Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds would have their own autonomous regions, overseen by a “viable central government in Baghdad.”
That was a much better idea and I think it would have worked.
deep
Blue Crack Addict
Rand Paul: Blame Dick Cheney for Iraq violence, not Obama - CBS News
got to give Rand Paul some props here,
got to give Rand Paul some props here,
The_Pac_Mule
Refugee
The Kurd's have been really taking it to ISIS. If anything, at least they'll finally get their own state out of all this, which I would see as a silver lining. There's no way this is going to end without Iraq breaking up. It's failed as a state, and there's no fixing 1000 years of bad blood.
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
I wish I could be granted one free punch in the face of Dick Cheney.
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