Iran hiding Nuclear Facility

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and, as ever, the point stands that Bill Clinton never, ever endorsed a full-scale invasion, and Bush's War was a radical policy break from what had been over a decade of US policy.

the other fact that remains is that Colin Powell's false assertion that there were contacts between Al-Qaeda and Baghdad came from a detainee named Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, who was tortured by the Bush administration and gave up false information in order to get them to stop torturing.

so there you have it. they tortured people to provide a false pretext to launch a war.
 
Interesting comment on Andrew Sullivan's blog:

The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan

It must drive them nuts to see a clear, if limited, victory for a strategy that is diametrically opposed to their own. Their ideology being discredited by events, and so they characteristically fall back into blind fits of intransigence, like screaming, foot-stomping children.

Obama has known about this facility from day one. At Cairo, he reached out the Muslim world, undermining the Iranian regime's ability to engage in arm-waving, fear-mongering anti-Americanism. He built himself a triumvirate with Brown and Sarkozy, who actually have an intelligence presence in Iran. He used that presence to build an airtight case. He cut a deal with the Russians. He reached out to Iran, knowing that they would likely reject or ignore his overtures. Then, when Ahmadinejad comes to New York, having to face Western journalists, Obama announces the the existence of the Qom facility, turning the spotlight on Iran when they are unable to hide behind state-controlled media. Obama, cool and calm, pulled off a near-perfect diplomatic pincer.

Finally, after years, we're starting to get somewhere with no threats and no bombs. Like I said, it must drive the neocons nuts. Obama did in eight months what George Bush couldn't do in eight years. How long do you think it will take for Krauthammer find a way to twist this victory into an accusation of naivete?
 
The question is, what happens now? Ahmadinejad has proven remarkably apathetic when it comes to the opinions of the West (or, frankly, anyone who disagrees with him). When listening to Obama's speech today, I couldn't help but wonder, "...or what?" America's ability to wield the big stick has been undermined by overextending its military presence in Iraq, and the UN has been proven to be relatively ineffective at anything except sanctions -- which have historically been more effective at aggravating the common populace than having any real effect on the leaders in question. It would be nice if the Iranian people were moved to take matters into their own hands, but the riots this summer only proved how calloused Ahmadinejad is to the voice of his own people...

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that Ahmadinejad has a secret facility in the shadow of Bush's presidency, any more than it should have been a surprise that N. Korea had a secret facility in the shadow of Clinton's presidency. Containment and diplomacy didn't work when dealing with N Korea, saber-rattling didn't work with Iran. So how shall we deal with small-minded dictators hell-bent on obtaining WMD?
 
It would be nice if the Iranian people were moved to take matters into their own hands,

Are you advocating a revolution in a democratic country, on the basis that the democratically elected government doesn't suit your views?

So how shall we deal with small-minded dictators hell-bent on obtaining WMD?

What are you talking about? Iran's government is democratically elected.

What kind of bullshit is being put forward in the US media?
 
and, as ever, the point stands that Bill Clinton never, ever endorsed a full-scale invasion

Thats false! Both Bill Clinton and his wife endorsed the 2003 Bush administration led invasion of Iraq! Bill Clinton went on Larry King Live the week before the invasion and said Bush was doing the right thing. Hillary Clinton voted for the congressional resolution authorizing the invasion.

and Bush's War was a radical policy break from what had been over a decade of US policy.

The proper enforcement of the UN Security Council Resolutions and protecting and securing the Persian Gulf through the necessary removal of Saddam's regime was perfectly consistent with US policy up to that point and was long overdue. Everything except invasion and the removal of the regime had been tried and failed.

Kenneth Pollack, Bill Clinton's National Security Staff member in charge of handling Iraq advocated for invading and removing the regime even before the Bush Administration did.

the other fact that remains is that Colin Powell's false assertion that there were contacts between Al-Qaeda and Baghdad came from a detainee named Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, who was tortured by the Bush administration and gave up false information in order to get them to stop torturing.

so there you have it. they tortured people to provide a false pretext to launch a war.

Authorization to use any military means the President felt necessary to deal with Iraq came from Congress on October 13, 2002. UN authorization came in mid-November 2002. Neither resolution involved assertions of a link with Al-Quada obtained allegedly through torture.

Based on opinion polls, the majority of the American public already supported using military force to remove Saddam even before September 2001. By mid-November 2002, President Bush had greater support from within the United States to launch the invasion than his father had back in 1990-1991 to use military force to remove Saddam's military from Kuwait.


Here is a video of Democrats supporting Bush administration policy when it comes to Saddam's regime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSwSDvgw5Uc&feature=related

Tim Russert: Do you believe we could have disarmament without regime change?

Senator Hillary Clinton: I doubt it! I can support the President. I can support an action against Saddam Hussian because I think it is in the long term interest of our National Security.

NBC "Meet The Press" September 15, 2002
 
Interesting comment on Andrew Sullivan's blog:

The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan

Just goes to show that Andrew is ignorant or forgot what Bush administration policy was on Iran prior to Obama coming into office. The Bush administration already had been working with the UK, France, Germany, and Russia to get Iran to comply with the interational communities demands on their nuclear program. Research, intelligence break throughs, resolutions at the UN, sanctions, were all things being undertaken by the Bush Administration against Iran in cooperation with many other countries.

Another important thing to mention is that Bush NEVER bombed Iran and Obama has not taken the THREAT of military force off the table. Again, Obama administration policy on Iran is not a radical departure from the Bush administration.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UberBeaver
They had no proof of WMDs - the closest they could muster was Colin Powell holding a picture of some trailers.



and this false, embarrassing information was extracted via torture.

just saying.
It's actually Optimus Prime. :shh:
 
The question is, what happens now? Ahmadinejad has proven remarkably apathetic when it comes to the opinions of the West (or, frankly, anyone who disagrees with him). When listening to Obama's speech today, I couldn't help but wonder, "...or what?" America's ability to wield the big stick has been undermined by overextending its military presence in Iraq, and the UN has been proven to be relatively ineffective at anything except sanctions -- which have historically been more effective at aggravating the common populace than having any real effect on the leaders in question. It would be nice if the Iranian people were moved to take matters into their own hands, but the riots this summer only proved how calloused Ahmadinejad is to the voice of his own people...

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that Ahmadinejad has a secret facility in the shadow of Bush's presidency, any more than it should have been a surprise that N. Korea had a secret facility in the shadow of Clinton's presidency. Containment and diplomacy didn't work when dealing with N Korea, saber-rattling didn't work with Iran. So how shall we deal with small-minded dictators hell-bent on obtaining WMD?



the difference now is that we have France on board, and it's looking like the Russians are willing to actually engage -- remember, it's the Russians who have been the foil when dealing with Iran, and it was France -- treacherous France! -- who were unwilling to go along with the Iraq war.

next is China. the "or what ..." is that Iran will be totally isolated.
 
1.

Clinton Backs Bush on Iraq War But Questions Invasion's Timing
By John F. Harris
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 20, 2004; Page A04


Former president Bill Clinton said he agreed with President Bush's decision to confront Iraq about its potential weapons programs, but thought the administration erred in starting a war in 2003 rather than allowing United Nations weapons inspectors longer to carry out their work.

"In terms of the launching of the war, I believe we made an error in not allowing the United Nations to complete the inspections process," Clinton told CBS News's Dan Rather in a "60 Minutes" interview to air tonight.

Clinton made similar comments in an interview with Time magazine, in which he said he "supported the Iraq thing" but questioned its timing. Portions of both interviews -- part of the publicity campaign in advance of this week's release of Clinton's memoirs -- were distributed in advance by the news organizations.

The Time excerpts, in particular, leave Clinton's views on Iraq somewhat jumbled. He both defends Bush for confronting a threat of which Clinton also spoke in dire terms while president, and minimizes the size and urgency of the problem posed by Iraq's suspected weapons programs.

Noting that he has "repeatedly defended President Bush against the left" on Iraq, Clinton dismissed the notion that the Iraq war was principally about protecting petroleum or financial interests.

Instead, he asserts that Bush acted primarily for ideological reasons and that the president was under the sway of Vice President Cheney and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz. "We went in there because he bought the Wolfowitz-Cheney analysis" that defeating Iraq would help transform the greater Middle East toward democracy.

Clinton's own rhetoric while president emphasized the commitments to allow unfettered weapons inspections that Iraq had made under the terms of surrender in the 1991 Persian Gulf War, and the likelihood that then-President Saddam Hussein was developing weapons of mass destruction that he planned to use.

In February 1998, after Hussein blocked U.N. inspectors from entering Iraq, Clinton warned: "What if he fails to comply, and we fail to act? Or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal."

In the Time interview, Clinton said "I never really thought" Hussein would use his weapons but did worry that Iraqi weapons might be sold or given away.

Clinton ordered missile strikes against Iraq in December 1998 but did not press aggressively for U.N. inspectors to return. Bush administration officials said this was precisely the "ambiguous third route" in Clinton's warning. But Bush has been embarrassed by the failure of inspectors after Hussein's fall last year to find major weapons programs.

In the Time interview, Clinton suggested that he was concerned after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks that Iraq had "a lot of stuff unaccounted for." But in the same interview he seemed to warn against exaggerations about how many weapons were ever suspected.

He said at the time the United Nations pulled out the weapons inspectors in 1998, not to return until after Bush came to power, "there were substantial quantities of botulinum and aflatoxin, as I recall, some bioagents" in addition to some "chemical agents" such as VX and ricin that were "unaccounted for."

"Keep in mind," Clinton urged Time interviewers Michael Duffy and Joe Klein, "that's all we ever had to work on. We also thought there were a few missiles, some warheads, and maybe a very limited amount of nuclear laboratory capacity."



2. The UN decides how to enforce it's resolutions, not the United States.

3. The fact remains that Colin Powell's presentation -- where they tried to make the what would have been critical assertion that Baghdad and AQ were working together -- was sexed-up with demonstrably false "facts" gained through torture.
 
Plenty of evidence has been out there that Iran is not cooperating, the question is, will liberals dream up a way to dismiss this latest piece of evidence.

Plenty of evidence Iraq had WMD....lol:applaud:
 
1.





2. The UN decides how to enforce it's resolutions, not the United States.

3. The fact remains that Colin Powell's presentation -- where they tried to make the what would have been critical assertion that Baghdad and AQ were working together -- was sexed-up with demonstrably false "facts" gained through torture.


1. If Clinton thought the timing of the invasion of Iraq in March 2003 was wrong, he could have come out in said that it was. He didn't! He supported it fully at the time! The article you posted is not from March 2003 or earlier, but from over a year later in 2004.

Bill Clinton fully agreed with the position of his wife which was the following:


Tim Russert: Do you believe we could have disarmament without regime change?

Senator Hillary Clinton: I doubt it! I can support the President. I can support an action against Saddam Hussian because I think it is in the long term interest of our National Security.

NBC "Meet The Press" September 15, 2002




2. The UN decides how to enforce it's resolutions, not the United States.

I agree, and the UN decided in resolution 678, that the "use of all means necessary" was justified in bringing Iraq into compliance and applied this to all subsequent resolutions in regards to Iraqi compliance. This was used again in resolutions 687 and 1441. All three resolutions were passed under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations allow for military force to be used to bring about compliance. Resolutions against Israel are passed under Chapter VI rules which does not allow the use of military force to bring about compliance.

Bill Clinton sited resolution 678 throughout his presidency when ever he used military action against Iraq. You can't claim that Bush acted against the UN while Clinton acted with the UN. Both Presidents had authorization from prior UN resolutions to use military force against Iraq to bring it into compliance. When it comes to military force and the resolutions passed against Iraq, the United Nations never made any distinction between air strikes, partial invasions, full scale invasions etc. If you believe that Bush did not have UN authorization to engage in the military action he did, then you can't claim that Bill Clinton had UN authority to engage in the military action he did either.


3. The fact remains that Colin Powell's presentation -- where they tried to make the what would have been critical assertion that Baghdad and AQ were working together -- was sexed-up with demonstrably false "facts" gained through torture.

Colin Powell's presentation MONTHS after Bush already had authorization to go to war from congress and the United Nations consisted strictly of intelligence information approved by George Tennet at the CIA. Nothing in Powells report was sexed up at all. Powell was very concerned that he present only the best and most reliable information strictly from the CIA and not any hunches or information that did not have solid backing. It did not contain any of Cheney's more skeptical material or sources.
 
in 2008, on Meet The Press, Mrs. Clinton had this to say:

Clinton justified her 2002 Iraq war vote again on Meet the Press, saying that she thought "it was a vote to put inspectors back in” so Saddam Hussein could not go unchecked. She insisted that she was “told by the White House personally” as were others that that’s what the resolution was for and noted that Bush himself said publicly that the resolution was the best chance to avoid a confrontation.

Moderator Tim Russert pointed out that the title of the resolution was the “Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002.”

Clinton responded saying, “We can have this Jesuitical argument about what exactly was meant. But when Chuck Hagel, who helped to draft the resolution said, 'It was not a vote for war,' What I was told directly by the White House in response to my question, 'If you are given this authority, will you put the inspectors in and permit them to finish their job,' I was told that's exactly what we intended to do.
 
in 2008, on Meet The Press, Mrs. Clinton had this to say:


In 2008 she was campaigning to win the nomination for President of the Democratic party, a difficult run for her in a party that had become militantly anti-war, at least on the more liberal side. Despite that though, she never said that her vote for the resolution or her support for the war was a mistake.

More importantly, she and no other Democrats who voted for the October 13 resolution came out in opposition against the Bush administration as the war got under way in March 2003. If any of the Democrats who voted for the resolution in October of 2002, thought it was not a vote to go to war and that going to war in late March 2003 was a mistake or pre-mature, they had a perfect opportunity to come out in opposition to the war. They never did at that time which shows they did not feel that the Presidents use of military force in March 2003 was against or not consistent with the congressional resolution they had voted for in October 2002.
 
Well, since you don't know, they were to be placed there to defend against the threat of long range Iranian Ballistic missiles. The United States also has systems in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Turkey which defend against short range and medium range ballistic missiles that could threaten those countries.

But none of these systems threaten the country with the largest ballistic missile force in the world, Russia.

Speaking of Russia, the advent of the Russian atomic bomb geatly dissuaded the US and Britain from using their new toys again. It kept NATO expansionism, war and aggression firmly in check post WW2.

An Iranian bomb will have the same effect - greatly altering the balance of power in the Middle East. That's what the US administration, whether under Bush or Obama, is concerned about, not a bomb being fired in the Middle East. If they were worried about that, they'd have disarmed Israel - a country with a track record of aggression against its neighbours, unlike Iran - long ago. They just don't want their client state and proxy in the Middle East being checkmated.
 
More importantly, she and no other Democrats who voted for the October 13 resolution came out in opposition against the Bush administration as the war got under way in March 2003. If any of the Democrats who voted for the resolution in October of 2002, thought it was not a vote to go to war and that going to war in late March 2003 was a mistake or pre-mature, they had a perfect opportunity to come out in opposition to the war. They never did at that time which shows they did not feel that the Presidents use of military force in March 2003 was against or not consistent with the congressional resolution they had voted for in October 2002.


However, a number, such as John Edwards, subsequently admitted they were wrong to back the war.
 
OH MY GOD

NOT IRAQ

GLARRHGHHGHGH

Look! Expert commentary!

Link

For nearly two decades, Israel and the U.S. have warned about Iran’s nuclear capabilities and the need to “do something” preemptively. With Ahmadinejad at the U.N., Gary Sick argues for a safer response.

President Eisenhower once remarked to his peripatetic Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, “Don’t do something, Foster, just stand there.” From all evidence, Dulles paid not the slightest attention to his boss’ injunction. And that is no surprise. The job description of a Washington policy adviser is never to “just stand there.” It is not in their DNA. Their job is solving problems. It is somehow slightly un-American to suppose that problems may at times have no solution or might best be alleviated by keeping hands off.

Iran has been a critical issue for the United States and Israel for a very long time. Seventeen years ago, in January 1992, the U.S. Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare of the House Republican Research Committee, asserted that there was a "98 percent certainty that Iran already had all (or virtually all) of the components required for two to three operational nuclear weapons.” That same month, Binyamin Netanyahu told the Knesset that "Within three to five years, we can assume that Iran will become autonomous in its ability to develop and produce a nuclear bomb… (The nuclear threat) must be uprooted by an international front headed by the U.S.” In that same year, Robert Gates, then director of the CIA, asked, "Is [Iran’s nuclear program] a problem today?" He answered, "Probably not. But three, four, five years from now it could be a serious problem." Three years later, a senior Israeli official declared: "If Iran is not interrupted in this program by some foreign power, it will have the device in more or less five years."

Officially, both the United States and Israel now agree that Iran is unlikely to be able to produce a bomb until about 2013 or 2014—the same five-year window that was being predicted seventeen years ago in 1992.


For the better part of two decades, there have been cries of alarm that the United States must “do something” or else Iran would have an operational nuclear weapon within a few years. If these warnings of a “ticking clock” had been heeded, there would have been ample reason for the United States or Israel to go to war with Iran at almost any time. In fact, there have been as many serious predictions that a war was imminent and unavoidable as there have been false predictions about the timing of an Iranian bomb. Seymour Hersh, writing in the New Yorker beginning in 2006, quoted many sources inside and outside the U.S. government who claimed that the Bush administration was preparing to attack Iran because of its nuclear policies. It now appears that Vice President Cheney, based on his own words in retirement, was in fact pressing for such an attack, but President Bush vetoed it.

In June 2008, former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton predicted that Israel “will attack Iran” before January 2009 when the new U.S. president was sworn in, but apparently the Israeli leadership decided otherwise. Just a few weeks ago, retired Air Force general Chuck Wald on National Public Radio outlined a sustained bombing campaign against Iran that would last “weeks or months,” then added, “Now, does anybody in their right mind want to attack Iran? No, not a bit. But sometimes you've got to do things you don't like to do.” From the tone of his voice, the prospect of an attack did not seem to dismay him, and he has gone on to write a series of op-eds pushing the military option.

These statements are admirably clear in recognizing that the end game in any concerted pressure campaign against Iran is war. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton threatened “crippling sanctions” to be imposed on Iran if it failed to cooperate with U.S. diplomatic efforts. That phrase was later echoed by Israeli prime minister Netanyahu during his visit to Germany, and it is expected to be a major focus of the U.S. Congress starting in September. Iran does not have sufficient refinery capacity to meet all its gasoline needs, and the Congress is expected to press for actions that would attempt to curtail or block such imports into Iran. A prohibition of Iranian petroleum imports—most likely restricted to the United States and perhaps some of its European allies since Russia, China and even many of Iran’s allies (think Venezuela) and immediate neighbors (think Iraq) are unwilling to cooperate—can only be truly enforced by a blockade, which is an act of war.

The perpetual plea for U.S. foreign policy to “do something” needs to be changed; we would be better served by adopting the physicians creed: “First, do no harm.”

With Iranian president Ahmadinejad in New York spouting his usual venom and with negotiations scheduled to begin with Iran on October 1 over a package of issues, including their nuclear plans, it is the right time to stop and think about where we are, how we got to this point, and where we want to go.

First, beware of panic cries of ticking time bombs. The world may have more time and more bargaining leverage than is generally supposed. Iran has proceeded very slowly with its nuclear program. If Iran had proceeded at the same speed as Pakistan (which had far fewer resources than Iran), it would have had a bomb test and a deliverable nuclear weapon more than decade ago. Iran has chosen to remain in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and to accept International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspections, over the objections of its own hardliners—the only proto-nuclear state to have done so. Iran has repeatedly and formally declared at the highest levels that the production, storage or use of a nuclear weapon was contrary to Islam and not in Iran’s national interest—most recently earlier this week by Supreme Leader Khamenei.

These facts do not solve the problem—countries can change their minds or their timetables—but these often neglected realities do provide something to work with in serious negotiations. A senior U.S. diplomat recently put the problem to me in the form of three hard questions:

• What if Iran gets a full nuclear fuel cycle?
• What if they get a nuclear weapon?
• Is it possible that Iran and the United States could ever again develop a level of trust that would permit them to become partners rather than antagonists?

For all practical purposes, much as we may dislike it, Iran has already answered the first question. Iran has already mined and enriched uranium, though it has not yet fabricated the product into fuel rods that could be used in a nuclear power reactor, nor have they given any indication of building a reprocessing facility that would “mine” highly irradiated uranium and plutonium from spent fuel rods.

It is highly unlikely that any Iranian leader would give up the current nuclear capability. That was an objective of the shah, and it would no doubt be pursued even by opposition leaders such as Mir Hossein Moussavi and Mehdi Karroubi. The current mastery of the fuel cycle means that Iran is essentially independent of outside suppliers for its nuclear power plant(s). It also means, of course, that Iran has the basic capability to “break out,” i.e. to recycle its low enriched uranium (LEU) to weapons grade (roughly from 5 percent to more than 90 percent enrichment) and use that material to build a nuclear weapon. The amount of time it would take to go from LEU to weapons grade and then to a deliverable nuclear device is debatable but could require five years or more depending on the level of sophistication and preparation.

Iran currently has about enough LEU to be able to produce a single crude nuclear device. But in order to do so, it would either have to build a completely secret production line or else withdraw from the NPT, kick out the IAEA inspectors, and try to proceed. The more inspectors are on the ground (and Iran is presently the most inspected country under IAEA supervision), the less likely it is that a completely covert facility can be created. Use of the present enrichment facilities to produce bomb-grade uranium would certainly be noticed and reported. It is an early warning system.

If Iran has a known capacity to be able to build a bomb, its negotiating leverage is nearly as great as if it actually had one or two crude bombs in its possession. That calculation, we now know, was the shah’s strategy before the 1979 revolution; it is very likely the strategy of his successors. It maximizes influence and minimizes risk.

What if Iran got a bomb? Well, unless they buy one intact, the process of actually moving to weaponization is likely to be noticed, so one must ask what happens between the moment when they decide to proceed to a bomb and when they actually have it. That period, which is apt to be several years, would be the true case of the ticking time bomb, and that would be the moment for consideration of extreme pressure tactics, probably with very wide support in the international community. Iran knows this, and that is itself a disincentive for them to proceed.

The real purpose of negotiations, in my view, is to build a system of monitoring and inspections that will (1) provide maximum early warning of a potential future Iranian decision to “break out;” and (2) insure the maximum possible interval between that moment and the moment where Iran could actually have a bomb. Iran has said on several occasions that it is willing to accept such an enhanced inspection regime, but it will no doubt insist on a price. That, I think, is what the negotiations should be about.

Can the United States and Iran ever rebuild a sufficient level of confidence to be able to work together effectively on nuclear, regional or other issues? With the present regime in power, that is probably asking too much. The one bright spot, however, is that Ahmadinejad, despite all his swagger and bluster, is a secondary figure at best in the actual decision-making on major security policy. Any Iranian decisions taken in real negotiations will be taken by consensus. Based on everything we know, Ahmadinejad’s voice, however shrill, will be drowned out by the real architects of Iran’s foreign policy, whose primary interest is the national interest of the country as they see it. The real question is whether the clamor of domestic politics in both the United States and Iran will prevent the pragmatists on both sides from being heard.

Gary Sick served on the National Security Council staff under Presidents Ford, Carter and Reagan. He was the principal White House aide for Iran during the Iranian Revolution and the hostage crisis and is the author of two books on U.S.-Iranian relations.

I'm not surprised Iran wants a bomb. It's being a rational actor to believe that nuclear bombs help guarantee their government's security.
 
I already served TYVM. :)

Iraq%20Kids.jpg



These kids are fine therefore DU doesn't do anything. All we need are pictures right?
 
I'm not surprised Iran wants a bomb. It's being a rational actor to believe that nuclear bombs help guarantee their government's security.

Agreed. It's a rational action and if I lived in Iran I'd certainly support my governments actions to defend the citizens from foreign aggressors.
 
You're right, the second one gets the job done.



and it's only taken 6 years and 100,000+ dead Iraqis and the fact that the Sunnis are currently reloading and more chaos awaits.

thank you for your service, i appreciate your bravery. but this does not somehow justify a foolish military action pursued under deliberately falsified circumstance by a corrupt, radical, criminally negligent administration that has failed in nearly all aspects of governance. i absolutely reject the notion that there was somehow "no choice" but to invade in March of 2003. if you look closely, the war was timed to suit the GOP political calendar, and it was sold to the American people as, 1) Saddam's WMD's will kill YOU, and 2) it will be quick and the oil will pay for it all and we'll be greeted as liberators.

it was a lie then, it's a lie now, and thousands of Americans have died for it.
 
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