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Old 09-28-2009, 04:00 PM   #91
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Neocons are getting all soft and sentimental these days!
As per wikipedia:

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Neoconservatism is a political philosophy that emerged in the United States of America, and which supports using American economic and military power to bring liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:33 PM   #92
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As I understand it, nobody helped out the U.S. as it was fighting for its independence.
Ummm....God, maybe? This is the United States, after all.
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Old 09-28-2009, 08:40 PM   #93
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YAY for Iranian missile tests on Yom Kippur!!!!

What was this thread about again?
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:14 PM   #94
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YAY for Iranian missile tests on Yom Kippur!!!!

What was this thread about again?
If the Israelis wish for their bizarre prehistoric death cult to be treated with respect, let them start with treating other bizarre prehistoric death cults with respect.

BBC ON THIS DAY | 28 | 2000: 'Israel no longer deserves my sympathy'


A plague on all the peasant death cult religions, say I.
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:24 PM   #95
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Financeguy, with respect, that doesn't even really make sense. The um, writings of Judaism and Islam are, by definition, not prehistoric.

peasant death cults? jeepers.
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:35 PM   #96
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Financeguy, with respect, that doesn't even really make sense. The um, writings of Judaism and Islam are, by definition, not prehistoric.

peasant death cults? jeepers.
Well, I'll try and tone it down, for the benefit of the sky god worshippers.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are essentially religions founded on a combination of ancient family disagreements, ancient tribal wars, and books of stories written by storytellers that came up with imaginative explanations of the world at a time when science was in its infancy. Now, we have a better understanding of how stuff works, due to science, so I suggest these old story books should be cast aside.
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:42 PM   #97
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German mercenaries as well.
i'm fairly certain they helped out the crown.
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:48 PM   #98
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Well, I'll try and tone it down, for the benefit of the sky god worshippers.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are essentially religions founded on a combination of ancient family disagreements, ancient tribal wars, and books of stories written by storytellers that came up with imaginative explanations of the world at a time when science was in its infancy. Now, we have a better understanding of how stuff works, due to science, so I suggest these old story books should be cast aside.

Yeah, yeah, I get that you don't approve. I actually only meant that by their nature, these writings belong to the historical era. Prehistory is the stuff where we don't even know the stories, because there's nothing left. Like Britain's neolithic stone rings and so forth.
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:27 AM   #99
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i'm fairly certain they helped out the crown.


oh, crap. you're right.

apologies.

and i used to love this time period as a child.

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Old 09-29-2009, 02:33 AM   #100
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Well, I'll try and tone it down, for the benefit of the sky god worshippers.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are essentially religions founded on a combination of ancient family disagreements, ancient tribal wars, and books of stories written by storytellers that came up with imaginative explanations of the world at a time when science was in its infancy. Now, we have a better understanding of how stuff works, due to science, so I suggest these old story books should be cast aside.
Hardly any of what you said in this post made sense, which is a bit of a worry seeing as how you're the rationalist here.

Christianity as I was raised in it, is based overwhelmingly on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Leaving aside his self-proclaimed divinity which I can well imagine you'd have a problem with, most of these teachings concern the manner in which we should treat each other here on earth.

Furthermore, non-batty modern Christians, like me, have no problem with the scientific accounts of the cosmos and biology. None. It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, particularly when you consider the role which myth plays... it is story and art by another name. You could take it literally, but that would be a mistake (I'd argue even a mistake wrt the intentions of the original writers).

I know this is off topic, but you and a-wanderer and all the other atheists I see on the internet just come off as bloody insulting a lot of the time. You revel in it. This is not clever.

Every time you refuse to give the matter enough thought to acknowledge that my beliefs and those of a stereotypical biblical fundamentalist are divergent, you are as good as calling me a fuckwit.
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:30 AM   #101
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^ very fair.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:58 PM   #102
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Old 09-29-2009, 08:28 PM   #103
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1. If Clinton thought the timing of the invasion of Iraq in March 2003 was wrong, he could have come out in said that it was. He didn't! He supported it fully at the time! The article you posted is not from March 2003 or earlier, but from over a year later in 2004.

I agree, and the UN decided in resolution 678, that the "use of all means necessary" was justified in bringing Iraq into compliance and applied this to all subsequent resolutions in regards to Iraqi compliance. This was used again in resolutions 687 and 1441. All three resolutions were passed under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations allow for military force to be used to bring about compliance. Resolutions against Israel are passed under Chapter VI rules which does not allow the use of military force to bring about compliance.

Colin Powell's presentation MONTHS after Bush already had authorization to go to war from congress and the United Nations consisted strictly of intelligence information approved by George Tennet at the CIA. Nothing in Powells report was sexed up at all. Powell was very concerned that he present only the best and most reliable information strictly from the CIA and not any hunches or information that did not have solid backing. It did not contain any of Cheney's more skeptical material or sources.
MadelynIris is right - the thread should return to the issues.


The lies committed by the neocons to bring us into war represent mendacity on a monumental scale.

Elements of the British and American states were involved in spinning a story so vile that they will be damned for ever in the history books, not least because they have killed a huge number of people on the basis of that pack of lies.

A lie to start a war that kills hundreds of thousands is not like lying to win an election. It is not like lying about the economic news or statistics or trend curves. It is not like someone lying to his wife if he is late home some night. It is not like the average, everyday, venal political or personal lies that are told.

It is a lie that led us into a disaster the bottom of which we have, I fear, not yet seen and may not see for quite some time.

The reverbations, I suspect, will continue as long as you and I and probably everyone here is alive, and as long as the children of everyone here are alive, and maybe beyond.

They have scarred the face of the international and legal systems.

They have undermined respect for democratic institutions and the democratic system itself.

They have further polarised the world between east and west and between Muslim and non-Muslim.

They have stoked the fires of the hatred that exists against us in the Arab and Muslim worlds - us, Strongbow, you, and me, and probably everyone that posts here - and made them hate us even more than they already did.

With a charge sheet like that, it is no wonder that almost no-one here will back you up, Strongbow, as you continue with your constant repetitious references to minor legalities and resolutions, which are really just another, smaller smoker screen to detract attention away from the major issue of the monstrous crimes committed by the neocons in the name of 'regime change'.

And I wish you a good day.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:33 PM   #104
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made them hate us even more than they already did.
Pretty sure the Iran hostage crisis and both attacks on the WTC happened well before the "lies" Bush spun to take us to war in Iraq. But we're part of the Big Zionist Conspiracy so we had it coming, right?
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:51 PM   #105
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Key facts to keep in mind while opposing war against Iran

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One: There is absolutely no evidence that Iran is trying to develop a nuclear weapon.

Two: The U.S. has not discovered a “secret nuclear facility” in Iran.

Three: The recent Iranian tests of long-range missiles is a purely defensive exercise.

Four: Despite what we all have repeatedly heard, Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad does not deny the Holocaust. (Please see quotes below.)

Five: Iran has a lot of oil. A whole lot.
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