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Old 09-27-2009, 09:23 PM   #76
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Wait, let me guess. The Warsaw Pact and Iron Curtain, through their deterrence, prevented WW III -- and the Berlin Wall was built to keep West Germans from escaping into East Germany.
Did I say the Soviets having nukes was the only factor? Er, no. I don't see what's so strange in suggesting both sides having nukes was a factor in deterrence.
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Old 09-27-2009, 09:37 PM   #77
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You certainly seem to be suggesting that the United States and later NATO could not be trusted as the sole superpower in a post WWII landscape and their militaristic imperialism and economic empire-building needed to be held-in-check by another international entity. Would that be correct? That those notorious "neo-cons" Henry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower and JFK couldn't be trusted with the world's only "bomb."
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Old 09-27-2009, 09:52 PM   #78
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You certainly seem to be suggesting that the United States and later NATO could not be trusted as the sole superpower in a post WWII landscape and their militaristic imperialism and economic empire-building needed to be held-in-check by another international entity. Would that be correct?
Absolutely. That is exactly what I am suggesting, and I don't see why it's such a controversial statement. I sincerely hope you are not a supporter of world government.

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That those notorious "neo-cons" Henry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower and JFK couldn't be trusted with the world's only "bomb."
Of course they couldn't. Who could? Would you trust yourself with the world's only nuke?
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:10 PM   #79
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FG, in aggregate terms, do you feel as if the government of the United States treats it's citizens well? same question in regards to the Soviet Union, and for Iran.
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:16 PM   #80
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FG, in aggregate terms, do you feel as if the government of the United States treats it's citizens well? same question in regards to the Soviet Union, and for Iran.
I have absolutely no idea. I have never lived in any of these countries. I find the question surprising. Although, I don't think a government which sends enormous numbers of its young men and women to fight in foreign wars for no clear objective can be said to be treating its citizens well, for a start.

As a conservative libertarian, of course, I regard government as a service provider, which essentially should be treated as a business and restricted, in so far as possible, to areas that the private sector cannot service. That said, anyone who has examined the issue for more than a nanosecond will see that the citizens of the former Soviet Union were better off under the Soviet Union than the anti-free market oligarchy which immediately followed it.
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:22 PM   #81
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Absolutely. That is exactly what I am suggesting, and I don't see why it's such a controversial statement. I sincerely hope you are not a supporter of world government.

Of course they couldn't. Who could? Would you trust yourself with the world's only nuke?
Then what stopped us after the surrender of Japan in 1945?

The Soviets suffered military and civilian casualties of over 20 million and were an economic basketcase, Europe was in ruins and we alone had the atomic bomb? Who was going to stop us, Canada?
No, instead we packed up "our toys," came home to our best gals and actually began rebuilding the countries we just pounded into submission?

No I'm afraid the Unites States is a complete failure as an imperialistic empire and believe it or not, no tanks or battleships were required for the "occupation" of Alaska and Hawaii in 1959.
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:29 PM   #82
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In all fairness, the window in which the US was the only one with The Bomb was a pretty brief one. Five years, at most? Five very preoccupied years, I would add.
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:30 PM   #83
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anyone who has examined the issue for more than a nanosecond will see that the citizens of the former Soviet Union were better off under the Soviet Union than the anti-free market oligarchy which immediately followed it.
The tens of millions of Soviets citizens killed under the communist regimes of the 20th century might rebut that.
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:35 PM   #84
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The tens of millions of Soviets citizens killed under the communist regimes of the 20th century might rebut that.
I meant to say, in the period of time immediately proceeding the disastrous shock doctrine period.
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:51 PM   #85
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I have absolutely no idea. I have never lived in any of these countries. I find the question surprising. Although, I don't think a government which sends enormous numbers of its young men and women to fight in foreign wars for no clear objective can be said to be treating its citizens well, for a start.


i find your equivocation between the three societies surprising, and as i've said before, fashionable and convenient.

you can call me imperialist or what have you, but i find the idea of Iran with a nuke far, far more concerning than the USSR's arsenal. there's no mutual deterrence, and i'd rather be dealing with (nominally) atheist totalitarianists rather than the religious who are preoccupied not with this life but with the next.

i'm certainly not a "USA, right or wrong" bloviator by any stretch of the imagination, and i find most of the neocons as terrifying as you do, but to say that there's somehow no difference between the goals of these three societies is really bad thinking, imho.
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:03 PM   #86
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I meant to say, in the period of time immediately proceeding the disastrous shock doctrine period.
Let me rephrase Irvine's question this way.

At which point in time or history would you say it was easier to practice libertarianism in Russia than in the United States?

And that Shock Doctrine stuff sounds like crap to me. If you believe in capitalism and free-markets why would responding and rebuilding after disasters be any different? What is your feeling about "price gouging." Exploitive or a quick way to get needed materials and supplies to an area through supply and demand?
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:06 PM   #87
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That said, anyone who has examined the issue for more than a nanosecond will see that the citizens of the former Soviet Union were better off under the Soviet Union than the anti-free market oligarchy which immediately followed it.
I think that is probably a fair statement and could apply to a number of former Soviet bloc countries. The levels of corruption, and the growing gaps between the classes in many of these places are making them absolutely awful places to live with rather dim futures.

Having said that, I remember living in a communist Eastern European country and I also very well remember that we all knew it was a total shit system and the number one and main preoccupation of every citizen aside from the ruling communists atop the party was how the eff to get out of there. America was a dream and an idea that we'd have given limbs for...western Europe as well, to a lesser degree. 20 years later I know that the US wasn't the paradise I thought it was, and our society wasn't the hell either, but I can guarantee you that if we were given a choice back then, it would have taken about no time to make it.

I do realize though that the USSR itself and apparently China as well did not feel the same way since their media did a much better brainwashing job than ours did. We all knew that it was bullshit, but my Chinese friends have told me that they really did believe that in America people starved to death and were terribly unhappy.
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:11 PM   #88
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Let me rephrase Irvine's question this way.

At which point in time or history would you say it was easier to practice libertarianism in Russia than in the United States?

And that Shock Doctrine stuff sounds like crap to me. If you believe capitalism and free-markets why would responding and rebuilding after disasters be any different? What is your feelings about "price gouging." Exploitive or a quick way to get needed materials and supplies to an area?
I don't really understand what you are saying here. Surely you are aware that the disposal of former state assets of the Soviet Union was criminally mismanaged, by virtue of the entire wealth being placed in the hands of seven to nine oligarchs? If not, I can recommend an excellent documentary on the subject.

In theory, I'd probably have agreed with Shock Doctrine if it was done properly.
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Old 09-28-2009, 06:02 AM   #89
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As I understand it, nobody helped out the U.S. as it was fighting for its independence.
The French did.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:30 AM   #90
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The French did.


German mercenaries as well.
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