Iran hiding Nuclear Facility

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^ It's possible that he doesn't deny the Holocaust as an actual event, but that he refers to, in his view, the exploitation of the Holocaust by imperialistic powers as a myth and therefore denies the myth. He doesn't seem to have ever clarified it one way or the other.
 
The lies committed by the neocons to bring us into war represent mendacity on a monumental scale.

No one lied and you grossly overuse and generalize the slang term neocons, which as you define it, probably does not exist anyway.

Elements of the British and American states were involved in spinning a story so vile that they will be damned for ever in the history books, not least because they have killed a huge number of people on the basis of that pack of lies.

I'm waiting for the first person to write the book "Saddam should have been left in power" or "Why Iraq and the world would be safer with Saddam in power". No one lied, and the invasion was a necessity and any resulting casualties are the fault of Saddam's regime and the terrorist who tried to take advantage of the situation afterwards.

As time goes by, few people will come to Saddam's defense, and gradually, the majority of Americans will see the war as a necessity, like they did up until the summer of 2005. History will not defend Saddam, and it will vindicate Bush.

A lie to start a war that kills hundreds of thousands is not like lying to win an election. It is not like lying about the economic news or statistics or trend curves. It is not like someone lying to his wife if he is late home some night. It is not like the average, everyday, venal political or personal lies that are told.

Well, I think everyone would agree with that. But the only leader engaged in lies involving Iraqi policy was Saddam. Saddam was the one who launched 4 unprovoked invasions and attacks on his neighbors. Saddam is the one guilty of using WMD more times than any leader in history. Saddam is the one that consistently lied to the international community and decieved the inspectors for years.


It is a lie that led us into a disaster the bottom of which we have, I fear, not yet seen and may not see for quite some time.

The reverbations, I suspect, will continue as long as you and I and probably everyone here is alive, and as long as the children of everyone here are alive, and maybe beyond.

Well, it certainly does seem like parts of the anti-war movement hopes that will be the case, but I think they are going to be bitterly disappointed! Iraq is already ahead of Morocco in Standard of Living and has a lower murder rate than the United States!

The real disaster was averted by removing Saddam from power.

They have scarred the face of the international and legal systems.

They have undermined respect for democratic institutions and the democratic system itself.

Actually, the war strengthed those systems. The UN Security Council had essentially become a joke, until 2003 when the necessary and long overdue action was taken to enforce the resolutions.

Iraq is developing into a democracy which is the exact opposite of the type of government it had with Saddam. The development of democracy in the middle east is stronger today than it was 20 years ago.

They have further polarised the world between east and west and between Muslim and non-Muslim.

Actually, they have literally brought them together. Hundreds Of Thousands of US military personal have been working closely with Iraqi military, police, and civilian and government officials for years now in building a new Iraq. There has never been this level of engagement and contact between the United States and the Middle East ever before.

They have stoked the fires of the hatred that exists against us in the Arab and Muslim worlds - us, Strongbow, you, and me, and probably everyone that posts here - and made them hate us even more than they already did.

You may like to think that, but its certainly not the case. Relations between the US military and their Iraqi counterparts have never been stronger. Violence against the 120,000 US troops in Iraq has become rare. The fires of hate and extremism stoked by Al Quada have been largely extinguished and replaced by even greater cooperation rebuilding and development.

With a charge sheet like that, it is no wonder that almost no-one here will back you up, Strongbow,

LOL, well, I would not expect little San Francisco to support many of the facts and opinions presented by Republicans.

as you continue with your constant repetitious references to minor legalities and resolutions,

Sorry, but there is nothing minor about them. The resolutions passed against Iraq by the UN security council were passed under Chapter VII rules of the UN and are the most serious resolutions that can be passed by that organation. There is nothing minor about resolutions that authorize the use of military force to bring about enforcement.

which are really just another, smaller smoker screen to detract attention away from the major issue of the monstrous crimes committed by the neocons in the name of 'regime change'.

The only one that committed monstrous crimes was Saddam's regime, and its amazing that there are still people out there willing to defend that regime.
 
what is the problem with Iran having nuclear power? im all ears. (or eyes in this case)
 
Speaking of Russia, the advent of the Russian atomic bomb geatly dissuaded the US and Britain from using their new toys again. It kept NATO expansionism, war and aggression firmly in check post WW2.

LOL. NATO expansionism was not a problem just after World War II. Its has never really been a problem unless of course you believe the Russians lately. Soviet expansionism was the problem. The Soviet Union exploded their first atomic bomb(which had been under development for some time) only a couple of months after NATO was first formed.

Until the mid-1960s, the United States had the ability to destroy targets in the Soviet Union without any real fear that the Soviets could hit the US mainland with a nuclear weapon. Thats one of the reasons why the discovery of Soviet missiles in Cuba in 1962 was considered a crises, because it was the first time the Soviets had a realistic chance of hitting the US mainland with a nuclear weapon.

Until the mid-1960s the Soviets did not have operational SLBM armed subs in sufficient numbers that could get close enough to hit the US mainland. Although the Soviets developed their first intercontinental bombers in 1954, they never had enough then or through the 1960s to penetrate US air defenses. The Soviets only had 4 ICBM's in 1961 that were not considered operational.

It was not until the late 1960s, and the development of a survivable second strike capability with the Soviets first ICBM stockpile that the Soviets could be said to have finally entered the deterence game on the level of the United States. By that point in time, even a US nuclear first strike of the Soviet Union would not have been able to take out all Soviet ICBM's and would have resulted in a counter strike large enough to destroy the United States to a degree from which it would be unlikely to recover. It is around that time that the term MAD(mutually assured destruction) first came into use. But this was the late 1960s, NOT the situation in 1949.


An Iranian bomb will have the same effect - greatly altering the balance of power in the Middle East. That's what the US administration, whether under Bush or Obama, is concerned about, not a bomb being fired in the Middle East.

The impact of an Iranian nuclear weapon will first be felt in Iran's foreign policy. Iran up to now has always hid behind proxies like Hezboloh, Humas, or other terrorist groups to carry out military action. Unlike Saddam, the Iranian regime has been unwilling to take direct military action itself in most cases. But with a nuclear weapon, Iran will likely caculate that it can now afford to take more risk with the bomb backing them up. Iranian nuclear weapons means more Iranian adventurism and possibly direct conventional military action in the region to achieve its foreign policy goals.

Consequently, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and many other states in the region may feel forced to start their own nuclear weapons programs to counter the Iranian threat. Essentially, it could be the start of a new much larger nuclear arms race involving dozens of country's around the world. Those are the chief concerns and worries of much of the international community in regards to Iranian nuclear weapons.

If they were worried about that, they'd have disarmed Israel - a country with a track record of aggression against its neighbours, unlike Iran - long ago. They just don't want their client state and proxy in the Middle East being checkmated

Israel with nuclear weapons is not the same as Iran with nuclear weapons. Israel was legally created in 1948 and then brutally attacked by its Arab neighbors the next day. Israel has not been the agressor since then, it has been its Arab neighbors that have been guilty of agression in trying to wipe Israel of the face of the map and refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist. The US and its Allies new that Israel would never use nuclear weapons unless it was about to be completely overrun. Israel is a true democracy and is not a supporter of terrorism unlike Iran.
 
what is the problem with Iran having nuclear power? im all ears. (or eyes in this case)

The problem is not nuclear power, the problem is nuclear weapons and Iran's failure to let the international community accurately verify whether or not it is making a nuclear weapon.
 
The problem is not nuclear power, the problem is nuclear weapons and Iran's failure to let the international community accurately verify whether or not it is making a nuclear weapon.

ok, so what if they have nuclear weapons? why is that any of the USA's business? lots of countries have nuclear weapons. why do some countries get to pick and choose who gets them and who doesnt? do you really think Iran is a threat to the US as far as nuclear missiles and whatnot are concerned?
 


One: There is absolutely no evidence that Iran is trying to develop a nuclear weapon.

FALSE: There is plenty of evidence of Iranian warhead design and development up through 2003 when the program was stopped.

Two: The U.S. has not discovered a “secret nuclear facility” in Iran.

The Iranians have disclosed the location of a nuclear facility that has been there for sometime and was never previously mentioned in its dealing with the IAEA. Regardless of what has been done at the facility, that alone clearly shows deception. Such deception can indicate intent.

Three: The recent Iranian tests of long-range missiles is a purely defensive exercise.

Only the launch of Anti-ballistic missile systems or anti-aircraft missiles could be seen as "purely defensive".

Four: Despite what we all have repeatedly heard, Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad does not deny the Holocaust. (Please see quotes below.)

Which is irrelevant.

Five: Iran has a lot of oil. A whole lot.

It sure does, although not as much as several of its neighbors. In addition, it has to be sent away to be refined into gas while most other countries in the region can do that on their own.

Also, nearly all of Iran's oil is located in the province of Kuzistan right next to Kuwait and Iraq, and in some places along the coast. This means Iranian oil is vulnerable to siezure in the event of a conflict. One would not have to invade deeply into Iran in order to sieze its oil supplies and keep it on the world market. I'm not suggesting that is something to suddenly do, but if a serious conflict were to errupt, it remains an option in order to protect the global economy.
 
ok, so what if they have nuclear weapons? why is that any of the USA's business? lots of countries have nuclear weapons. why do some countries get to pick and choose who gets them and who doesnt?

Because the proliferation of nuclear weapons is considered to be a threat to global security. The goal of non-proliferation is to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons while at the same time trying to reduce the current stockpile of nuclear weapons in use by the few nations that have them, with the ultimate goal of possibly one day going down to zero nuclear weapons provided that a way to technically verify that can be developed one day.

Only a small number of countries have nuclear weapons:

United States
Russia
United Kingdom
France
China
Israel
India
Pakistan
North Korea

Thats nine countries out of 195.
 
ok, so what if they have nuclear weapons? why is that any of the USA's business? lots of countries have nuclear weapons. why do some countries get to pick and choose who gets them and who doesnt? do you really think Iran is a threat to the US as far as nuclear missiles and whatnot are concerned?

Because their leader repeatedly talks about wiping Israel off the map.
 
Because their leader repeatedly talks about wiping Israel off the map.

:blahblah:

and that is the US's problem how? sounds like Israel's problem to me.

our "alliance" with Israel seems a bit one sided to me. what have they ever done for the US thats been worth a damn compaired to what the US has done for Israel? seems like our strong support of Israel, along with our being involved in middle-eastern affairs for the last 60 years, is one of the main reasons they are pissed off at us.
 
^ the main question i have about that was was it worth the billions and billions of dollars and thousands and thousands of lives we've blown over 6 years? what did the US gain from liberating the Iraqis from Saddam's regime?
 
and that is the US's problem how? sounds like Israel's problem to me.

our "alliance" with Israel seems a bit one sided to me. what have they ever done for the US thats been worth a damn compaired to what the US has done for Israel? seems like our strong support of Israel, along with our being involved in middle-eastern affairs for the last 60 years, is one of the main reasons they are pissed off at us.

Britain hasn't done much for us either, except try to stop us from creating our own country, so I guess we don't need them as allies either. And frankly I don't give a damn if the rest of the middle east doesn't like us for allying ourself with Israel.
 
Britain hasn't done much for us either, except try to stop us from creating our own country, so I guess we don't need them as allies either. And frankly I don't give a damn if the rest of the middle east doesn't like us for allying ourself with Israel.

British troops in Iraq - 45,000
Israeli troops in Iraq - 0

British troops killed in Iraq - 179
Israeli troops killed in Iraq - 0

and that's just 1 example.
 
And what exactly was that real disaster expected to be?

One of the worst possible disasters would be the siezure and or sabotage of vital energy supplies in the Persian Gulf Region resulting in a worldwide economic depression equal to or worse than the 1930s Depression.

Who's defending his regime

Those opposed to the removal of the regime.
 
One of the worst possible disasters would be the siezure and or sabotage of vital energy supplies in the Persian Gulf Region resulting in a worldwide economic depression equal to or worse than the 1930s Depression.

In what way was he in a position to sieze or sabotage those supplies in 2003? From what I remember in 1990, he was chased fairly quickly and easily out of Kuwait with no ensuing worldwide economic depression.
 
^ the main question i have about that was was it worth the billions and billions of dollars and thousands and thousands of lives we've blown over 6 years? what did the US gain from liberating the Iraqis from Saddam's regime?

Not having to suffer the consequences of leaving Saddam in power with little to no ability to contain him anymore thanks to the erosion of sanctions and the weapons embargo. Saddam had already murdered 1.7 million people, came close to cutting off much of the planets energy supply. He had to either be contained and cooperating 100% with the international community or removed from power. A case could be made that he should have been removed after invading and annexing Kuwait, but clearly, there were only two options after he did that. Fool proof sanctions and weapons embargo plus 100% cooperation from the regime, or regime removal. Because of Saddams failure to cooperate with the international community over a period of 12 years and the break down of the international sanctions and the weapons embargo needed to have any reasonable chance of containing him, regime removal became a necessity.
 
and here we have the absolute rotten core of the argument, exposed.

Nothing rotten about it, just the truth about the importance of Persian Gulf Oil. Even Jimmy Carter understood it when as President he warned the Soviets after their invasion of Afghanistan that he was ready to use nuclear weapons to defend the region.

Colin Powel, Secretary Of State James Baker, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Kenneth Pollack, Michael O'Halon all expressed the same view points on the region in the past would not find any thing "rotten" about the arguement.
 
In what way was he in a position to sieze or sabotage those supplies in 2003? From what I remember in 1990, he was chased fairly quickly and easily out of Kuwait with no ensuing worldwide economic depression.

It only took Saddam, 2 Republican Guard divisions and 12 hours to sieze Kuwait in August 1990 plunging the world into a huge crises.

There were estimates by the CIA that the Iraqi's still had the capability to overrun Kuwait in 2003 if they launched an all out effort, but not be able to go further. But, the use of WMD plus obtaining new conventional weapons with the breakdown of international sanctions and the weapons embargo could allow Saddam to build his capabilities well beyond that and threaten the Saudi Oil fields which would be the real prize.

But given what Saddam did in 1990, the improtant thing was to prevent anything like that from ever happening again. To knowingly wait for Saddam to be in a position to sieze key Saudi Oil field would obviously be foolish. The goal here was compliance and containment and if the key pieces of that strategy could not be enforced, then to remove him from power, rather than risk a repeat of 1990 or something worse.

By the way, Saddam's invasion and siezure of Kuwaiti oil supplies in 1990 was enough to cause the 1990-1991 global recession. It also cause a massive environmental disaster for the region when Saddam lit the Kuwaiti oil wells on fire and dumped oil from the ports into the Gulf. The nightmare senerio of a great depression would require the siezure and sabotage of energy resources in Saudi Arabia.
 
regime removal became a necessity.

Because? He had no WMD and no way of successfully invading a neighbour to disrupt oil supplies.

Again, what did the US have to gain with billions and billions of dollars (borrowed from China) and thousands of troops lives?
 
Because? He had no WMD and no way of successfully invading a neighbour to disrupt oil supplies.

Thats incorrect. He still had 2,700 tanks, 2,000 armored personal carriers, 2,000 artillery pieces, and 300 combat aircraft. As I said before, if Saddam made an all out effort, he could still probably overrun Kuwait in 2002 according to a CIA study. No one in the military or at CENTCOM acted or thought that an Iraqi invasion of Kuwait was not a possiblitiy. In fact in 1994, Saddam moved multiple Republican Guard Divisions to the border with Kuwait, which caused the United States to ship tens of thousands of troops to the region. The problem is the bulk of the forces arrived 10 weeks after the incident took place. In 1999 CENTCOM came out with a specific plan for invading Iraq and removing Saddam called Desert Crossing.

In 2002, most intelligence agencies believed he had active WMD arsonal and if not, he certainly maintained the means to produce one in violation of the UN Ceacefire agreement. He also had failed to account for thousands of stocks of WMD according to UN inspectors.

The issue here is compliance and cooperation. Without compliance and cooperation on these matters, invasion and regime removal becomes a necessity and the only full proof way to insure that Saddam is verifiably disarmed of all WMD.

Again, what did the US have to gain with billions and billions of dollars (borrowed from China) and thousands of troops lives?

Again, not having to deal with the consequences of not removing Saddam in 2003 which would later prove far more costly in both money and lives than anything that has happened over the past 6 years.

The arguement that one should wait until Saddam is well equipped to conduct a multi-Corp invasion of Saudi Arabia with plenty of Ballistic missiles and WMD is absurd. How would waiting for that moment save lives and money? Waiting for Saddam to be able to repeat August of 1990 or August of 1990 on a grander scale is foolish and goes against everything the United Nations and the international community tried to do to resolve the problem in the 1990s.

(borrowed from China)
Some of it. Plus, China would be in even worse condition than the USA or Europe if a crises blocked oil from the Persian Gulf.


Here is a little from Bill Clinton on Iraq and the need to remove him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENAV_UoIfgc&feature=related

"The hard fact is, that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world. The best way to end that threat, once and for all, is with a new Iraqi government. A government ready to live in peace with its neighbors. A government that respects the rights of its people."

President Bill Clinton
 
Thats incorrect. He still had 2,700 tanks, 2,000 armored personal carriers, 2,000 artillery pieces, and 300 combat aircraft. As I said before, if Saddam made an all out effort, he could still probably overrun Kuwait in 2002 according to a CIA study.

And he would have faced another successful Desert Storm.

No one in the military or at CENTCOM acted or thought that an Iraqi invasion of Kuwait was not a possiblitiy. In fact in 1994, Saddam moved multiple Republican Guard Divisions to the border with Kuwait, which caused the United States to ship tens of thousands of troops to the region. The problem is the bulk of the forces arrived 10 weeks after the incident took place.

So?

In 1999 CENTCOM came out with a specific plan for invading Iraq and removing Saddam called Desert Crossing.

If it was so urgent and critical, why did it take 4 years to act?

Again, not having to deal with the consequences of not removing Saddam in 2003 which would later prove far more costly in both money and lives than anything that has happened over the past 6 years.

How so? You haven't provided any detail - just blanket fear-mongering.

The arguement that one should wait until Saddam is well equipped to conduct a multi-Corp invasion of Saudi Arabia with plenty of Ballistic missiles and WMD is absurd. How would waiting for that moment save lives and money? Waiting for Saddam to be able to repeat August of 1990 or August of 1990 on a grander scale is foolish and goes against everything the United Nations and the international community tried to do to resolve the problem in the 1990s.

The argument is that in 2003, Saddam was no where close to being in a position to mount a sustainable military offensive against anyone.
 
If it was so urgent and critical, why did it take 4 years to act?




because they had a national tragedy to exploit.

it was no accident that a huge percentage of FoxNews viewers thought that Saddam Hussein was behind 9-11. they also waterboarded to try to forge a link between Al-Qaeda and Iraq.

but i'm doing my best to stay out of this.
 
And he would have faced another successful Desert Storm.

Eventually if Saddam had chosen to attack at that point. The problem is that the cost of having Kuwait overrun in 2002 are greater than they were in 1990 do to increasing global demand.

The more woriesome problem is not Saddam's actual capabilties in 2002, but the essential end of sanctions and the weapons embargo the conerstone of containment which was the only other possible option other than regime change in dealing with Saddam after 1991.

The Coalition were lucky in 1990 that Saddam had not gone further than just Kuwait and had gone into Saudi Arabia. Desert Storm was launched from Saudi Arabia and would not have been possible without it. The obtainment of new or improved capabilities by Saddam because of the erosion of sanctions and the weapons embargo could allow Saddam's military to be able to take more than just Kuwait in a sudden offensive into the southern Persian Gulf Region. The overrunning of bases in Saudi Arabia vital to the deployment of US forces as well as the sudden loss of the oil fields would put the region could create the nightmare senerio and hinder or prevent the United States ability to quickly combat or resolve the crises.


Your the one that claimed Saddam had no ability to threaten his neighbors.

If it was so urgent and critical, why did it take 4 years to act?

Its called contingency planning. Everyone hoped something short or regime change could be found to resolve the problem of Saddam, but it was important to have a detailed plan if action was ordered or clearly became a necessity. In 1999, Sanctions and the Embargo were still somewhat effective. It was over the next few years that they crumbled and the lack of UN inspectors in Iraq for four years also increased the urgency of needing to act.

How so? You haven't provided any detail - just blanket fear-mongering.

With containment broken, the only option left for dealing with Saddam was regime change given his past behavior. With the sanctions and weapons embargo having just recently crumbled, the longer the coalition waited to remove Saddam, the stronger he would get. The stronger Saddam became, the more costly in lives and money regime change would become. Acting later would only allow Saddam time to accumulate more wealth and capabilities which would increase coalition casualties and financial cost once the decision was finally made to remove him.

When Saddam would obtain certain capabiliites such as being able to overrun more than just Kuwait and take the Saudi oil fields is not clear. Nor is it exactly clear when he could have produced a nuclear weapon or other forms of WMD. But what is clear, is that the means of preventing Saddam from obtaining such capabilties through sanctions and the weapons embargo was no longer possible given their erosion and unpopularity. Although Saddam only overran Kuwait in 1990, he did have the means to strike deep into Saudi Arabia as well. With sanctions and the weapons embargo gone, it would only be a matter of time before that level of capabilities was reached again or surpassed.

The overruning of the Saudi Oil fields would be a disaster for the world and could plunge the world into terrible economic depression given how vital oil is to supply the global economy. Saddam's invasion of Kuwait in 1990 helped to cause the 1990-1991 recession. In the 21st century, global demand for oil has only grown and the means to try and compensate for a sudden loss of supply given demand or less today than they were back then.




The argument is that in 2003, Saddam was no where close to being in a position to mount a sustainable military offensive against anyone.

Well, thats not the case given the size of Saddam's military forces and his ability to move them around the country. If what you said had any truth to it, Saddam would not be able to maintain control of the country. The US could have just used irregular Iraqi forces inside the country to overthrow the regime. Its precisely Saddam's capabilties in regards to use of Tanks and armored vehicles and their use to TAKE and HOLD territory that had allowed his regime to survive the opposition in the country after the 1991 Gulf War.

According to the US military and the CIA, Saddam had sizable military force sufficiently capable to such a degree that it was IMPOSSIBLE for internal opposition to overthrow him and he could still mount an invasion of Kuwait that would overrun the country.

Its also important that you understand the distances involved here. Kuwait is a very small country. It only took Saddam TWO divisions and 12 hours to overrun it the first time. Without substantial US ground forces to block an offensive, Saddam would be able to overrun Kuwait.

The Gulf states refused to have a large US military presence on the ground meaning large numbers of US forces would have to come all the way from the United States in order to respond to any invasion by Saddam. Distance and timing are also huge factors in looking at Saddam's capabilties vs. the smaller gulf states and the USA.
 
Eventually if Saddam had chosen to attack at that point. The problem is that the cost of having Kuwait overrun in 2002 are greater than they were in 1990 do to increasing global demand.

Of course, but I'm quite sure it doesn't remotely compare to actual costs since the invasion.

The more woriesome problem is not Saddam's actual capabilties in 2002, but the essential end of sanctions and the weapons embargo the conerstone of containment which was the only other possible option other than regime change in dealing with Saddam after 1991.

The sanctions didn't end until after the invasion.

With containment broken, the only option left for dealing with Saddam was regime change given his past behavior.

It wasn't broken, it just didn't result in regime change.


When Saddam would obtain certain capabiliites such as being able to overrun more than just Kuwait and take the Saudi oil fields is not clear. Nor is it exactly clear when he could have produced a nuclear weapon or other forms of WMD.

:up:


Although Saddam only overran Kuwait in 1990, he did have the means to strike deep into Saudi Arabia as well.

Yet he didn't. Because if he had, he would have been taken out. Just as he would have been at any point after Desert Storm.


Saddam's invasion of Kuwait in 1990 helped to cause the 1990-1991 recession.

The savings and loan crisis did that, not Saddam.

The Gulf states refused to have a large US military presence on the ground meaning large numbers of US forces would have to come all the way from the United States in order to respond to any invasion by Saddam.

:lol: That's almost as good as the Honda saleswoman who told me the new vehicle delivery charges were so high because the car (manufactured 30 minutes north of my house) was being shipped from Japan.

At least we've established that Saddam didn't pose a military threat in 2003.
 
Of course, but I'm quite sure it doesn't remotely compare to actual costs since the invasion.

In a $15 Trillion dollar economy, a 5% decline in GDP is a huge loss, and far exceeds the initial invasion and to remove Saddam and is comparable to what has been spent since then on rebuilding Iraq. But again, the case for removing Saddam is not based just on his capabilities in 2002.

The sanctions didn't end until after the invasion.

The sanctions did not officially end on paper until after the invasion. But for all practical purposes they were nearly gone. Syria was actively letting anything through the borders by 2002. Much of Saddam's black market sales of oil which reached $5 billion by 2002 was through sales by way of Syria. Iran and Turkey were even letting violations go unchecked by that time. France, Russia, and China, members of the UN Security Council were violating sanctions by that time as well. China's work on Iraq's air defense system after the year 2000 was total open violation of the sanctions regime.

It wasn't broken, it just didn't result in regime change.

If that were the case, Saddam would not be making $5 Billion dollars on the black market in 2002 from the illegal sale of his oil. Again, Syria, France, Russia, China, Iran, and even Turkey all did things or let certain things go that violated the sanctions regime against Iraq.


Well, if you read the next line instead of just cherry picking your way through some one elses post you would know that the key here is means of preventing Saddam from obtaining such capabilities through sanctions and the weapons embargo had eroded. Given that fact, its only a matter of time before Saddam would acquire new wealth and capabililites.

In addition, intelligence is not some perfect science and is often inaccurate. The intelligence one what Saddam had in the WMD area prior to the 1991 Gulf War was proven inaccurate in the inspections right after the war. It showed that Saddam was a lot further a long in his capabilities with regard to WMD than had been previously thought.

The problem is that from the outside, intelligence can be correct or could be wrong, but wrong in either direction. The results of US intelligence from the before the 1991 Gulf War and before the 2003 Gulf War only highlight that one could never rely on intelligence to know when action would or would not need to be taken. Rather, compliance with the resolutions and and a strong sanctions regime would be the only possible other option instead of regime change to insure that Saddam could not threaten the region again. Unfortunately, Saddam failed to cooperate and the sanctions and weapons embargo eventually fell apart making regime change a necessity.

Yet he didn't. Because if he had, he would have been taken out. Just as he would have been at any point after Desert Storm.

As I already tried to explain before, Desert Storm required secure basing area's for the United States to set up its forces in order to re-take Kuwait. The staging area to do that was Saudi Arabia. If Saddam takes Saudi Arabia, the United States has no place to mount such a massive operation. The United States is then looking at an amphibious operation from the Gulf or a much longer and difficult deployment onto other area's of the Arabian pennisula, all the while the nightmare senerio has materialized the Iraq in possession of Saudi oil. All the key roads cities, and basing area's, airfields were in Saudi Arabia's northeastern area near the Gulf. Without that, your looking at far more difficult ways to get into the region as well as a logistical nightmare for the military given the large forces that were required.

Its generally recognized that Saddam's biggest mistake in his 1990 invasion and annexation of Kuwait was not moving into Saudi Arabia immediately and allowing the coalition to slowly build up its forces in Saudi Arabia over the next 6 months.

The savings and loan crisis did that, not Saddam.

Well, so much for trying to explain to you the impact of oil has on the economy.


That's almost as good as the Honda saleswoman who told me the new vehicle delivery charges were so high because the car (manufactured 30 minutes north of my house) was being shipped from Japan.

Wow, I can see your really after a mature discussion of a policy issue with a statement like that.


At least we've established that Saddam didn't pose a military threat in 2003.

Well, where was that established? It certainly was not in any of the brief comments you made in this post.
 
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