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Neocons are getting all soft and sentimental these days!
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:wink: As per wikipedia:

Neoconservatism is a political philosophy that emerged in the United States of America, and which supports using American economic and military power to bring liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries.
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Financeguy, with respect, that doesn't even really make sense. The um, writings of Judaism and Islam are, by definition, not prehistoric.

peasant death cults? jeepers.
 
Kieran McConville said:
Financeguy, with respect, that doesn't even really make sense. The um, writings of Judaism and Islam are, by definition, not prehistoric.

peasant death cults? jeepers.
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Well, I'll try and tone it down, for the benefit of the sky god worshippers.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are essentially religions founded on a combination of ancient family disagreements, ancient tribal wars, and books of stories written by storytellers that came up with imaginative explanations of the world at a time when science was in its infancy. Now, we have a better understanding of how stuff works, due to science, so I suggest these old story books should be cast aside.
 
financeguy said:
Well, I'll try and tone it down, for the benefit of the sky god worshippers.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are essentially religions founded on a combination of ancient family disagreements, ancient tribal wars, and books of stories written by storytellers that came up with imaginative explanations of the world at a time when science was in its infancy. Now, we have a better understanding of how stuff works, due to science, so I suggest these old story books should be cast aside.
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Yeah, yeah, I get that you don't approve. I actually only meant that by their nature, these writings belong to the historical era. Prehistory is the stuff where we don't even know the stories, because there's nothing left. Like Britain's neolithic stone rings and so forth.
 
financeguy said:
Well, I'll try and tone it down, for the benefit of the sky god worshippers.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are essentially religions founded on a combination of ancient family disagreements, ancient tribal wars, and books of stories written by storytellers that came up with imaginative explanations of the world at a time when science was in its infancy. Now, we have a better understanding of how stuff works, due to science, so I suggest these old story books should be cast aside.
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Hardly any of what you said in this post made sense, which is a bit of a worry seeing as how you're the rationalist here.

Christianity as I was raised in it, is based overwhelmingly on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Leaving aside his self-proclaimed divinity which I can well imagine you'd have a problem with, most of these teachings concern the manner in which we should treat each other here on earth.

Furthermore, non-batty modern Christians, like me, have no problem with the scientific accounts of the cosmos and biology. None. It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, particularly when you consider the role which myth plays... it is story and art by another name. You could take it literally, but that would be a mistake (I'd argue even a mistake wrt the intentions of the original writers).

I know this is off topic, but you and a-wanderer and all the other atheists I see on the internet just come off as bloody insulting a lot of the time. You revel in it. This is not clever.

Every time you refuse to give the matter enough thought to acknowledge that my beliefs and those of a stereotypical biblical fundamentalist are divergent, you are as good as calling me a fuckwit.
 
Strongbow said:
1. If Clinton thought the timing of the invasion of Iraq in March 2003 was wrong, he could have come out in said that it was. He didn't! He supported it fully at the time! The article you posted is not from March 2003 or earlier, but from over a year later in 2004.

I agree, and the UN decided in resolution 678, that the "use of all means necessary" was justified in bringing Iraq into compliance and applied this to all subsequent resolutions in regards to Iraqi compliance. This was used again in resolutions 687 and 1441. All three resolutions were passed under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations allow for military force to be used to bring about compliance. Resolutions against Israel are passed under Chapter VI rules which does not allow the use of military force to bring about compliance.

Colin Powell's presentation MONTHS after Bush already had authorization to go to war from congress and the United Nations consisted strictly of intelligence information approved by George Tennet at the CIA. Nothing in Powells report was sexed up at all. Powell was very concerned that he present only the best and most reliable information strictly from the CIA and not any hunches or information that did not have solid backing. It did not contain any of Cheney's more skeptical material or sources.
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MadelynIris is right - the thread should return to the issues.


The lies committed by the neocons to bring us into war represent mendacity on a monumental scale.

Elements of the British and American states were involved in spinning a story so vile that they will be damned for ever in the history books, not least because they have killed a huge number of people on the basis of that pack of lies.

A lie to start a war that kills hundreds of thousands is not like lying to win an election. It is not like lying about the economic news or statistics or trend curves. It is not like someone lying to his wife if he is late home some night. It is not like the average, everyday, venal political or personal lies that are told.

It is a lie that led us into a disaster the bottom of which we have, I fear, not yet seen and may not see for quite some time.

The reverbations, I suspect, will continue as long as you and I and probably everyone here is alive, and as long as the children of everyone here are alive, and maybe beyond.

They have scarred the face of the international and legal systems.

They have undermined respect for democratic institutions and the democratic system itself.

They have further polarised the world between east and west and between Muslim and non-Muslim.

They have stoked the fires of the hatred that exists against us in the Arab and Muslim worlds - us, Strongbow, you, and me, and probably everyone that posts here - and made them hate us even more than they already did.

With a charge sheet like that, it is no wonder that almost no-one here will back you up, Strongbow, as you continue with your constant repetitious references to minor legalities and resolutions, which are really just another, smaller smoker screen to detract attention away from the major issue of the monstrous crimes committed by the neocons in the name of 'regime change'.

And I wish you a good day.
 
made them hate us even more than they already did.
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Pretty sure the Iran hostage crisis and both attacks on the WTC happened well before the "lies" Bush spun to take us to war in Iraq. But we're part of the Big Zionist Conspiracy so we had it coming, right?
 
Key facts to keep in mind while opposing war against Iran

One: There is absolutely no evidence that Iran is trying to develop a nuclear weapon.

Two: The U.S. has not discovered a “secret nuclear facility” in Iran.

Three: The recent Iranian tests of long-range missiles is a purely defensive exercise.

Four: Despite what we all have repeatedly heard, Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad does not deny the Holocaust. (Please see quotes below.)

Five: Iran has a lot of oil. A whole lot.
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INDY500 said:
Pretty sure the Iran hostage crisis and both attacks on the WTC happened well before the "lies" Bush spun to take us to war in Iraq. But we're part of the Big Zionist Conspiracy so we had it coming, right?
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Which is why I said, if you look closely,
made them hate us even more than they already did.
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Now, let me make a very important and fundamental point about all of this. To me, it should be a relatively clear and obvious point but, for some - particularly in the West, frankly - it apparently isn't, and I genuinely don't mean that in a sarcastic way.

Seeking to understand why actions such as the first or second World Trade Centre bombings, or for that matter, the Iran hostage crisis, or what happened in London in July 2005, or the Madrid train bombings a year before, is no way supportive of any of those disgusting and disgraceful criminal acts of murder and terrorism.

In fact, it's the complete opposite of that. It's a process of trying to understand why these dreadful events happened in order to try to ensure that they don't happen again.

The difference between the point of view of anti-war people and that of Bush/Cheney, for example, is that we say it's a crime to kill innocent people for the crimes of guilty people whether it happens in London, or New York, or Afghanisation, or Iraq, or Madrid, or Tel Aviv, or anywhere in this world.

We don't just say it's a crime when it happens in New York or London or Madrid. In other words, the blood of some peoples' should not be more valuable that the blood of others. That philosophy that there should be different values on different peoples' blood is immoral, evil, and wrong - as the 911 bombings were immoral, evil, and wrong.

That's the difference. Please, try and grasp this point. I am trying to explain it as best I can. The blood of some people should not be more valuable that the blood of others.

INDY500 said:
But we're part of the Big Zionist Conspiracy so we had it coming, right?
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It isn't a conspiracy. It's pretty open, pretty up front and out there, at least for those that have eyes to see. It isn't necessarily Zionist either, for that matter, certainly not specifically so. The 'conspiracy' certainly isn't in the long term interests of Israeli citizens, or of Jewish people in general. Or of you, or of Strongbow, or of me.
 
INDY500 said:
Pretty sure the Iran hostage crisis and both attacks on the WTC happened well before the "lies" Bush spun to take us to war in Iraq. But we're part of the Big Zionist Conspiracy so we had it coming, right?
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but i thought 9-11 changed everything and now we have to torture people and invade unrelated countries in order to keep us safe?
 
Let Iran have its bombs. They're a sovereign country.

An Israeli attack only delays the inevitable and doubles (triples?) the price of oil overnight.


Iran knows that America or Israel could make the country a parking lot in a few minutes time.
 
financeguy said:
I suppose the US government would just stand idly by in the event of a revolution by disaffected elements?
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You bet! I am old enough to remember Iranian students during the late seventies kept American citizens as their "guest."

Should they overthrow their own government? Well, what ever floats their boat. Should the United States help? Not on your life....screw em!
 
AliEnvy said:
Really? That's the best you can do?

In reading the whole piece, which I'll assume you did, what exactly did you find laughable and why?
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I believe the Canadian delegation was the first to walk out on Ahmadinejad's speech at the U.N. Why don't you ask them what they found so objectionable.
As for the author of the piece, I don't waste my time trying to understand "useful idiots."
 
INDY500 said:
I believe the Canadian delegation was the first to walk out on Ahmadinejad's speech at the U.N. Why don't you ask them what they found so objectionable.
As for the author of the piece, I don't waste my time trying to understand "useful idiots."
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I'd probably walk out too, he's a jackass. However, it was you I was asking and it wasn't about his speech.

I also wasn't asking your opinion of the author of the piece who may also be a jackass.

Content. Focus.

What specifically do you dispute in the content or facts presented?
 
Well, at least during the G20 while everyone was pointing a 'gotcha' finger at Iran, no one noticed that the economic summit accomplished next to nothing on the economic front. Even Stongbow ditched the thread once the summit was over.

Mission accomplished.
 
financeguy said:
Which is why I said, if you look closely,

Now, let me make a very important and fundamental point about all of this. To me, it should be a relatively clear and obvious point but, for some - particularly in the West, frankly - it apparently isn't, and I genuinely don't mean that in a sarcastic way.

Seeking to understand why actions such as the first or second World Trade Centre bombings, or for that matter, the Iran hostage crisis, or what happened in London in July 2005, or the Madrid train bombings a year before, is no way supportive of any of those disgusting and disgraceful criminal acts of murder and terrorism.

In fact, it's the complete opposite of that. It's a process of trying to understand why these dreadful events happened in order to try to ensure that they don't happen again.

The difference between the point of view of anti-war people and that of Bush/Cheney, for example, is that we say it's a crime to kill innocent people for the crimes of guilty people whether it happens in London, or New York, or Afghanisation, or Iraq, or Madrid, or Tel Aviv, or anywhere in this world.

We don't just say it's a crime when it happens in New York or London or Madrid. In other words, the blood of some peoples' should not be more valuable that the blood of others. That philosophy that there should be different values on different peoples' blood is immoral, evil, and wrong - as the 911 bombings were immoral, evil, and wrong.

That's the difference. Please, try and grasp this point. I am trying to explain it as best I can. The blood of some people should not be more valuable that the blood of others.



It isn't a conspiracy. It's pretty open, pretty up front and out there, at least for those that have eyes to see. It isn't necessarily Zionist either, for that matter, certainly not specifically so. The 'conspiracy' certainly isn't in the long term interests of Israeli citizens, or of Jewish people in general. Or of you, or of Strongbow, or of me.
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I understand what you are saying and I agree. Murder, terrorism is horrible no matter whom, or what country it is committed against. I doubt, that any American would view ourselves as being more important than anyone else. I know. I don't. I felt just as badly, seeing the bombings in Madrid and London. As I did with the terroristic acts committed against New York and Washington D.C.

I do think you have a good point. Trying to understand what happened and why. Could possibly prevent terroristic acts in the future. At least, I hope so. If the United States and Europe can settle the Iranian nuclear problem, diplomatically. Of course, this is the best possible solution. I pray, this will happen. I don't think Americans want to go to war again.
 
Bluer White said:
An Israeli attack only delays the inevitable and doubles (triples?) the price of oil overnight.
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The demise of the dollar - Business News, Business - The Independent

By Robert Fisk
Tuesday, 6 October 2009
In the most profound financial change in recent Middle East history, Gulf Arabs are planning – along with China, Russia, Japan and France – to end dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of currencies including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold and a new, unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf Co-operation Council, including Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Qatar.
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This sounds like a dangerous prediction of a future economic war between the US and China over Middle East oil – yet again turning the region's conflicts into a battle for great power supremacy.
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China imports 60 per cent of its oil, much of it from the Middle East and Russia. The Chinese have oil production concessions in Iraq – blocked by the US until this year – and since 2008 have held an $8bn agreement with Iran to develop refining capacity and gas resources. China has oil deals in Sudan (where it has substituted for US interests) and has been negotiating for oil concessions with Libya, where all such contracts are joint ventures.
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Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars. Bankers remember, of course, what happened to the last Middle East oil producer to sell its oil in euros rather than dollars. A few months after Saddam Hussein trumpeted his decision, the Americans and British invaded Iraq.
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INSKEEP: We have, in a previous interview, discussed how you feel (the Holocaust) is being used unjustly to justify Israel, so we need not cover that ground again. But if you would like to describe to me what specifically you believe happened between 1942 and 1945, I would be interested.

AHMADINEJAD: But then 1942 to 1945 is still about the Holocaust, right? I do raise a couple of questions about the Holocaust, and you are a member of the media, and I believe that you should actually tell people what these questions are, and try to receive answers from them as well.
The first question is, is the Holocaust a historical event or not? It is a historical event. And, having said that, there are numerous historical events. So the next question is, why is it that this specific event has become so prominent? Normally, ordinary people and historians pay attention to historical events. Why are politicians giving so much attention to this particular event? Why are they so biased about it? Does this event effect what is happening on the ground this day, now? What we say is that genocide is the result of racial discrimination. Sometimes we look at history to learn the lessons of history.

INSKEEP: Are you acknowledging that millions of people were killed? Millions of Jews, specifically, were killed during World War II?

AHMADINEJAD: If you bear with me so that I can complete my statements, you will receive your answer. I'm asking, and I'm asking a number of serious questions. And I'm not addressing these questions to you, but to a wider audience — everyone — anyone who cares about the fate of humanity; who care about human beings and the rights of people. These are serious questions. If we are looking at history with the aim to learn — derive lessons from it, then what this indicates is that in the future, we should not carry out the same mistakes that were done in the past. While I personally was not alive 60 years ago, I happen to be alive now, and I can see that genocide is happening now under the pretext of an event that happened 60 years ago. So the fundamental question I raise here is that, if this event happened, where did it happen? As a form of an objection question, who was it carried by? Why should the Palestinian people make up for it?
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That really shows me a lack of common knowledge.
 
So the fundamental question I raise here is that, if this event happened, where did it happen? As a form of an objection question, who was it carried by?
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I guess he never took history in school, or the history classes they have there don't tell them such things. :shrug:
 
Is the Iranian President questioning the actual event or how many people (Jewish) were put to death? I have heard both. But, I would like to hear other opinions than the American Media.
 
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