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Old 08-03-2010, 12:51 AM   #46
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I think the blood covenant/sacrifice analogy made a lot more sense, carried more resonance, and was much less repugnant to the people of Christ's time than it is to us today. I'm not sure that our insistence on harping on the blood today isn't doing more harm than good. People no longer relate to these descriptives the way they would have in first century Palestine. It just sounds macabre. The idea that God loved us a enough to give His life for us. . .that idea, I think, has timeless currency.
No disagreement. I think I'm perpetually cursed to disagree with whatever room I'm in. So in a room full of people who harp endlessly on about the cross, I find myself asking if the cross is really the only Good News Jesus came to bring. (Making AEON's point.) In a room full of people who say that the cross has no real point or purpose, I'll argue the counterpoint. It's a nice life, shizophrenia...
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Old 08-03-2010, 01:18 AM   #47
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No disagreement. I think I'm perpetually cursed to disagree with whatever room I'm in. So in a room full of people who harp endlessly on about the cross, I find myself asking if the cross is really the only Good News Jesus came to bring. (Making AEON's point.) In a room full of people who say that the cross has no real point or purpose, I'll argue the counterpoint. It's a nice life, shizophrenia...
I can certainly relate to you on this point, brother. To take it further, many of the debates I'm having lately are with myself. I've become sort of a mix-match Christian - I pray the Rosary, venerate Mary, believe in transubstantiation - yet I feel much more comfortable with the Emergent Church movement (Rob Bell of Mars Hill especially) instead of the actual Catholic Church. People like Irvine, Melon, and Yolland have helped me dig a little deeper in my faith. My mind isn't wide open - but I always leave a small crack for some random light to shine through.
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Old 08-03-2010, 01:55 AM   #48
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I can certainly relate to you on this point, brother. To take it further, many of the debates I'm having lately are with myself. I've become sort of a mix-match Christian - I pray the Rosary, venerate Mary, believe in transubstantiation - yet I feel much more comfortable with the Emergent Church movement (Rob Bell of Mars Hill especially) instead of the actual Catholic Church. People like Irvine, Melon, and Yolland have helped me dig a little deeper in my faith. My mind isn't wide open - but I always leave a small crack for some random light to shine through.
Sadly, it means that I've written myself into a corner here in FYM.

And Irvine and Melon are good, but no competition with the professor from the Jesus Seminar with whom I spent my freshman year sparring. Best Biblical studies class I ever took.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:27 AM   #49
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Sadly, it means that I've written myself into a corner here in FYM.

And Irvine and Melon are good, but no competition with the professor from the Jesus Seminar with whom I spent my freshman year sparring. Best Biblical studies class I ever took.
What Irvine and Melon helped me realize is that human beings are involved in the debate, and not just abstract ideas (and Melon's biblical/philosophical knowledge is impressive).

Getting the chance to "spar" with a Jesus Seminar professor sounds like a lot of fun (as long as both of you were having fun).

At this point, I want to think less and do more. And I don't mean surrender my mind - I simply mean sending less time in books and trying to "figure it all out" and more time simply serving people and spending time with them (not evangelizing, simply building relationships. The best evangelism is love without an agenda. Because I believe that somehow/someway we all make it back home - and I don't need or feel compelled to give a "turn or burn" speech. I'm also a horrible salesman).
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:01 PM   #50
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Getting the chance to "spar" with a Jesus Seminar professor sounds like a lot of fun (as long as both of you were having fun).
Just keeping up with him was no mean feat. Hardest C I ever got. I remember after one particularly intense class, a classmate came up to me and said, "Man, you know your shit."

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At this point, I want to think less and do more. And I don't mean surrender my mind - I simply mean sending less time in books and trying to "figure it all out" and more time simply serving people and spending time with them.
Hear hear. Part of the problem with FYM is that it's only about the exchange of ideas -- until it gets intensely personal. Beer, I have found, is a tremendous relational equalizer.
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:18 PM   #51
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Having read Anne's thoughts on religion here and there over the past few years, I've been impressed with her sincerity and desire for her faith to be an agent for good according to her conscience. Having to reconcile those rather introspective notions with the contradictions inherent in the political, institutional church tends to force the faithful into ignoring large portions of the official theology or leaving it altogether. I'm not surprised that Anne chose the latter, considering how passionate she has been regarding her faith. I can very much sympathize with her journey and wish her the best.
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:33 PM   #52
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I can certainly relate to you on this point, brother. To take it further, many of the debates I'm having lately are with myself. I've become sort of a mix-match Christian - I pray the Rosary, venerate Mary, believe in transubstantiation - yet I feel much more comfortable with the Emergent Church movement (Rob Bell of Mars Hill especially) instead of the actual Catholic Church. People like Irvine, Melon, and Yolland have helped me dig a little deeper in my faith. My mind isn't wide open - but I always leave a small crack for some random light to shine through.
I think I mentioned this in an earlier religion thread in here, but I was wondering if you had ever investigated the Anglo-Catholic tradition of the Episcopal Church? As the Episcopal Church is officially decentralized, there are any number of individual churches that follow a spectrum of conservative to liberal with ceremonies ranging from pre-Reformation traditional to Tridentine Latin to the present Novus Ordo Roman Catholic mass, with some even having specific Marian devotion. It's a unique tradition unto itself that appeals to many for vastly different reasons, but often for the desire to have "Catholicism" without the Vatican, and reading your interests above makes me think you might be interested.

I've been investigating it myself. A good number of years away from formal services has been, on balance, valuable for me to examine what it is I've been looking for. Like Anne, I'm unsure that I can, in good conscience, return to Roman Catholicism currently, but I think I've devoted enough time to pondering my faith alone.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:56 PM   #53
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I think I mentioned this in an earlier religion thread in here, but I was wondering if you had ever investigated the Anglo-Catholic tradition of the Episcopal Church? As the Episcopal Church is officially decentralized, there are any number of individual churches that follow a spectrum of conservative to liberal with ceremonies ranging from pre-Reformation traditional to Tridentine Latin to the present Novus Ordo Roman Catholic mass, with some even having specific Marian devotion. It's a unique tradition unto itself that appeals to many for vastly different reasons, but often for the desire to have "Catholicism" without the Vatican, and reading your interests above makes me think you might be interested.

I've been investigating it myself. A good number of years away from formal services has been, on balance, valuable for me to examine what it is I've been looking for. Like Anne, I'm unsure that I can, in good conscience, return to Roman Catholicism currently, but I think I've devoted enough time to pondering my faith alone.
I haven't explored this. Thanks for bringing it up again. That really sounds up my alley (currently). I'll have to see what I can find here in South Orange County.
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