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Old 06-24-2009, 12:42 AM   #646
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I was just making a comment on the fact that debates will include many people with different backgrounds and values. Taking your word for it is not good enough and I certainly don't want people to take my word for it either. When I listen to other topics I want to include anyone irregardless of what their educational background or personal opinions, just like in a democracy. It's up to you to decide what you believe which I think is pretty obvious. As detailed the questions and answers to any political debate the same could be attributed to economic debates on this site. Some people I think are "batshit crazy" when it comes to economics but the debate goes on anyways.

But in a setting like this do I really need to "listen" to those that contradict themselves, use emotionally filled language, or have their facts wrong?

We should have SOME parameters, right? You've done all three, you just aren't a well equipped person when it comes to this topic, I think you are just towing the party line.

Nevermind all your contradictions, just answer this, for example:

How do you make exceptions for rape, incest, or near death? You are for it being legal to "kill" then right? So you make them prove it in court? That sounds logical right? Tie a woman up in court... I mean she was probably a slut who deserved it right?
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:10 AM   #647
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How do you make exceptions for rape, incest, or near death? You are for it being legal to "kill" then right? So you make them prove it in court? That sounds logical right? Tie a woman up in court... I mean she was probably a slut who deserved it right?
If you killed someone in self-defense, thats murder, but are you going to get in trouble for it? Most likely not, if it was justifable.




And what I don't get is why an abortion has to be such an easy thing to get?
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:37 AM   #648
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Who says an abortion is easy to get?

Some areas don't necessarily have clinics where a doctor is available. Some women might have to travel a good distance to find a clinic, and a doctor who performs abortions might only be available a few times a month.

Some states have restrictive laws in place that make it more difficult to get an abortion.

It makes me angry that many people think that a woman just saunters into the abortion clinic down the street and says, "Hi, I think I'll have an abortion today."
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:42 AM   #649
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It's good to know someone's in charge.
I thought you said you were done with me.
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Old 06-24-2009, 12:13 PM   #650
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But in a setting like this do I really need to "listen" to those that contradict themselves, use emotionally filled language, or have their facts wrong?
You don't have to listen.

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We should have SOME parameters, right? You've done all three, you just aren't a well equipped person when it comes to this topic, I think you are just towing the party line.
And none of this could be attributed to yourself? You strike me as a conformist that wants only liberal opinions because "how can conservatives be so wrong about everything?" Irvine was responding to the empathy argument that conservatives aren't empathetic to women in regards to abortion and my point was that you have to have no empathy for the unborn and their future to allow unrestricted abortion. Whether we side on highly restricted abortion or some compromise that allows restrictions for late term abortions, the idea is to reduce abortions because of the loss of life. Who says there has to be only one way? Those wikipedia links show multiple arguments people use defending pro-life or pro-choice. Do you think any poster could capture all that and find the cure all that would make everyone perfectly happy? This is why your posts are such a drag. At least Yolland makes an attempt at a discussion without looking for God to provide the Platonic perfect solution.

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Nevermind all your contradictions, just answer this, for example:

How do you make exceptions for rape, incest, or near death? You are for it being legal to "kill" then right? So you make them prove it in court? That sounds logical right? Tie a woman up in court... I mean she was probably a slut who deserved it right?
I already admitted that my compromise would have trouble standing in court in my last post. The only way I can see it now is to allow abortions if the mother has a high risk of dying in carrying the baby. As a person the baby isn't allowed to kill the mother so it would make sense in that case. With rape and incest killing the child wouldn't be necessary if the baby can be born. As you can see there are lots of permutations in the debate that are still ongoing and those who write books and are "experts" can't nail down a solution that all will like:

Philosophical aspects of the abortion debate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So is anyone without inconsistencies or opinions that need to be fleshed out in more detail?
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:06 PM   #651
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If you killed someone in self-defense, thats murder, but are you going to get in trouble for it? Most likely not, if it was justifable.




And what I don't get is why an abortion has to be such an easy thing to get?
Who says getting an abortion is easy?


You're missing my point. If you think abortion is murder than why make exceptions? Doesn't that seem contradictory to you?

And if you make exceptions then you have to be for legalized abortion.
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:23 PM   #652
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And none of this could be attributed to yourself? You strike me as a conformist that wants only liberal opinions because "how can conservatives be so wrong about everything?"
What? Conformist?

No, I appreciate well thoughtout opposition, I just don't think you have one on this paticular subject, and the way that so many have been able to so easily dismantle your "logic" should show you something.
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Irvine was responding to the empathy argument that conservatives aren't empathetic to women in regards to abortion and my point was that you have to have no empathy for the unborn and their future to allow unrestricted abortion. Whether we side on highly restricted abortion or some compromise that allows restrictions for late term abortions, the idea is to reduce abortions because of the loss of life. Who says there has to be only one way? Those wikipedia links show multiple arguments people use defending pro-life or pro-choice. Do you think any poster could capture all that and find the cure all that would make everyone perfectly happy? This is why your posts are such a drag. At least Yolland makes an attempt at a discussion without looking for God to provide the Platonic perfect solution.
I agree reduction in abortion is good. But the rest of this is just example of why you are regarded as being very frustrating to discuss anything with...
You twist and turn and make huge leaps of logic to the point where the original intent is completely lost on you.


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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
I already admitted that my compromise would have trouble standing in court in my last post. The only way I can see it now is to allow abortions if the mother has a high risk of dying in carrying the baby. As a person the baby isn't allowed to kill the mother so it would make sense in that case. With rape and incest killing the child wouldn't be necessary if the baby can be born. As you can see there are lots of permutations in the debate that are still ongoing and those who write books and are "experts" can't nail down a solution that all will like:
So you just now have changed your stance on rape and incest just because contradictions have been pointed out to you? See, this is why I don't think you are well equipped. How long have you been anti-choice? And within one day your stance changes because an obvious contradiction was pointed out to you? It just sounds like you're arguing for argument's sake.

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So is anyone without inconsistencies or opinions that need to be fleshed out in more detail?
Inconsistencies are fine, we have no absolutes, so inconsistencies are a given, but glaring contradictions are a whole entirely different thing.
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:33 PM   #653
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And what I don't get is why an abortion has to be such an easy thing to get?
Why don't you tell us how easy it is to get.
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:35 PM   #654
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I thought you said you were done with me.
You're like a cucumber. Just when I think I'm done, bam, another reminder.

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The only way I can see it now is to allow abortions if the mother has a high risk of dying in carrying the baby.
I see you've been doing more internet research.
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:42 PM   #655
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I think a couple of you must've missed this post:
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I think you convinced me. The pro-life stance up to the point of only allowing abortions when there's an increased risk of death would be cleaner for arguments sake. If I were to compromise I would have to lose empathy for the child in a rape situation that would nullify the rights for the unborn. If I do some more reading I may find an argument for it but it will likely have holes in logic.

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You're like a cucumber. Just when I think I'm done, bam, another reminder.
?

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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
So you just now have changed your stance on rape and incest just because contradictions have been pointed out to you? See, this is why I don't think you are well equipped. How long have you been anti-choice? And within one day your stance changes because an obvious contradiction was pointed out to you?
Honestly, so what? Maybe oscar is someone who enjoys using debate as a tool to help him develop and refine arguments in real-time that he hasn't necessarily spent hours of introversion on yet, or maybe this was just one of those moments where a possible gap in your logic that you've long overlooked suddenly becomes crystal-clear to you. Who cares? What does it hurt?
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:31 PM   #656
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Honestly, so what? Maybe oscar is someone who enjoys using debate as a tool to help him develop and refine arguments in real-time that he hasn't necessarily spent hours of introversion on yet
This.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:39 PM   #657
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I think Gov Palin read this thread before she went bat shit crazy on Letterman and that's what made her do that. In a Lost time travel sort of way.
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Old 06-24-2009, 05:03 PM   #658
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Honestly, so what? Maybe oscar is someone who enjoys using debate as a tool to help him develop and refine arguments in real-time that he hasn't necessarily spent hours of introversion on yet, or maybe this was just one of those moments where a possible gap in your logic that you've long overlooked suddenly becomes crystal-clear to you. Who cares? What does it hurt?
Honestly if it was any other debate I think it would have been fine, but when it's an already emotionally charged topic like abortion and the poster peppers his posts with language such as "kill people for convenience sake" and "because the woman thought sex was fun" then I thought it was out of line to use such a topic as a game.
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:09 PM   #659
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Abortion on demand advocates may find it interesting to consider a case where a black woman has a child by a white man - or vice versa - and the woman decides to abort the child, as, on mature consideration, they decided they didn't want to bring up a mixed race kid. Perhaps the woman discusses the matter with her parents, friends, whatever, and is told that she will not be accepted in her community if she raises a child of a different skin colour. So, a racist reason for abortion. A hypothetical case, granted, but it is not difficult to imagine such a scenario. Racists should surely be strong advocates of abortion, at least in this scenario. But, good liberal folk have the right view on both abortion and race, so obviously there's a disconnect here somewhere.

Rgds,

FG (exposing liberal hypocrisy on the web since 2007)
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:16 PM   #660
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I just said it in your Nixon thread, and I'll say it here.

I don't believe it's right to abort because of the race scenario. However, being for reproductive rights, I'm not for anyone making a judgement call as to under what circumstances a woman can get an abortion.

I don't think any of the "good liberal folk" are going to suggest that she should just have that damned baby because it's racist to abort. Is that what you're suggesting sarcastically, or did I misinterpret?

And as far as hypocrites go, they get abortions as well. The book I mentioned a few pages back talked of an instance where one of the regular protestors who were outside the author's clinic day after day came in for her own abortion. And then went right back to protesting.
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