In case there was any doubt, Sarah Palin is bat shit crazy. - Page 43 - U2 Feedback

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Old 06-22-2009, 08:33 PM   #631
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That was the single time. It was enough.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:01 PM   #632
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Do you see now Oscar why I say you aren't equipped? It has nothing to do with Phd's...


Now THAT is equipment.
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Old 06-22-2009, 11:42 PM   #633
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Old 06-23-2009, 09:15 AM   #634
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Bah, so much for seeing if Lady Gaga's (awesome) exploding brassiere would spark a fire and brimstone breastfeeding thrash out.

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Old 06-23-2009, 02:46 PM   #635
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I cannot believe I read all 43 pages of this. Comedic value (and I'm really bored), I guess, but I just lost hours of my life that I won't ever get back.

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

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Old 06-23-2009, 04:54 PM   #636
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What the fuck is wrong with you people?
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:11 PM   #637
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I don't know. You just said you read all 43 pages - what the fuck is wrong with you? Any sane person would have given up by at least page 5.

And we've already established that we're all batshit crazy in here, so ... guess you're one of us now.

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Old 06-23-2009, 05:21 PM   #638
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I was trying to find the origin of the term "batshit crazy".

So I typed in "batshit crazy origins", but accidentally press images and this was the first image that popped up:























































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Old 06-23-2009, 05:22 PM   #639
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And at least we didn't read the whole thing in one sitting! We've put a lot of time and effort into our craziness.
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:51 PM   #640
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:52 PM   #641
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Wait, you missed one:

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Old 06-23-2009, 10:32 PM   #642
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Wait, you missed one:

That’s right.

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Do you see now Oscar why I say you aren't equipped? It has nothing to do with Phd's...
I was just making a comment on the fact that debates will include many people with different backgrounds and values. Taking your word for it is not good enough and I certainly don't want people to take my word for it either. When I listen to other topics I want to include anyone irregardless of what their educational background or personal opinions, just like in a democracy. It's up to you to decide what you believe which I think is pretty obvious. As detailed the questions and answers to any political debate the same could be attributed to economic debates on this site. Some people I think are "batshit crazy" when it comes to economics but the debate goes on anyways.

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What does this mean?
I'm making a compromise in my argument for abortions where there is a situation of a high risk of death, or rape or incest. I think most pro-life types would not except the rape and incest part.

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You are very naive when it comes to family law legislation. It's not that child support laws are not perfect; it's that they are barely functional. I would like the people who pull out abortion statistics to also pull out the statistics regarding support arrears so that we can see what's what.

I give you some leeway for being uninformed on this topic.
Of course if financial problems are there I'm okay with orphanages and adoption as options as opposed to death. I'm aware of child support arrears and deadbeats out there. I know it's a financial burden on society to take care of these kids but so are jails. Helping families who have 8 kids is another example where families (that are together) would also have trouble paying for their day to day expenses without some form of charity.

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Well what do you advocate in your own nation? Province-by-province?

And whom will we hold responsible for aiding and abetting the woman? Her doctor? Her boyfriend/husband who agreed with her? Her best friend or sister who drove her to the clinic? They are certainly parties to the crime.
Hypothetically (if there was political pressure to do so) I think it would have to be federal because the Charter of rights and freedoms could be amended to defend the rights of the unborn. In reality because of the unpopularity of my point of view the notwithstanding clause would be used. I could guess that Quebec would have something to say about it.

Yes I advocate an investigation much like a criminal investigation for those involved.

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Which was why I was asking the question--to get you to clarify that last bit. Because when it comes down to it, that's really the only rational foundation for a comprehensive ethical argument against abortion rights--talking about 'responsibility for one's behavior' in the absence of such a view wouldn't hold up and wouldn't convince anyone. An unwanted pregnancy following one act of unprotected sex, and mild emphysema and type 2 diabetes following years of chain-smoking, overeating junkfood and not exercising, have in common that they're unwelcome and unpleasant, albeit 'treatable,' conditions which were nonetheless foreseeable and preventable--neither has much in common with, say, developing ALS, which is neither avoidable nor reversible to the best of our knowledge. But in the case of the emphysemic/diabetic, to say they therefore forfeited their right to make their own decisions about how to respond is readily recognizable to us as crossing a red line. It's really only the view, or the inclination towards it, that fetuses are rights-bearing individuals on a par with the rest of us, that makes some willing to support state intervention in what happens inside other individuals' bodies in this one case.
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It simply doesn't wash to 'compromise' here IF you're going to insist that fetuses must be morally and legally considered persons with rights. Unless you're talking combatants in a wartime situation, which by definition entails planned mass killing, then we cannot morally permit actual subjects of law to be killed as consequence of crimes they didn't commit--period, full stop. (Even the 'threat to the mother's life' rationale could be argued to be on shaky grounds here, though I'm willing to give you a pass on that one since there's no other 'culprit' to point to, hence the fetus would appear to be the closest thing to one...for what that's worth.) To say 'A fetus is a person with the right to live--except when it was conceived in a way that I'd feel Really, Really Mean making its mother carry it to term over' makes no sense at all. Recognizing legal personhood by definition imposes certain absolutes (such as the right to live) in a system founded on equality of all before the rule of law; you can't play fast and loose with those without gravely undermining the system itself.
I think you convinced me. The pro-life stance up to the point of only allowing abortions when there's an increased risk of death would be cleaner for arguments sake. If I were to compromise I would have to lose empathy for the child in a rape situation that would nullify the rights for the unborn. If I do some more reading I may find an argument for it but it will likely have holes in logic.

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But this is not how manslaughter works. That involves questions of whether the offender can reasonably be assumed to have been fully capable at the time of rationally thinking through and grasping the consequences to her victim. It's not about whether she 'didn't necessarily plan' for the immediate circumstances (unwanted pregnancy) surrounding the abortion--which in any case, as a form of killing, almost never involves the sudden, spontaneous loss of rational self-control envisioned by the manslaughter defense--to have obtained.
I do understand your meaning of manslaughter. I'm not a lawyer but my example of manslaughter would be somewhat reflected in this example:

South Dakota Codified Laws

This example of course would fit the typical pro-life position with only the exception of the mother at a high risk of dying from giving birth.

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While I disagree with many of your arguments, I do appreciate the fact that your interactions in making them have remained fundamentally calm and respectful, and hope that I've responded in kind.

We're never going to directly effect actual political changes merely by debating topics in here anyway, so there's no reason and nothing to be gained in repeatedly verbally browbeating or taunting people over what are ultimately just abstractions, however understandable the occasional eruptions of exasperation we all have may be. Chronically reaming on people doesn't make you seem like a righteous defender of justice or reason; it just makes you seem lacking in emotional self-control.
It’s the only way to have interesting debates. I used to get more angry like a lot of people during the last election cycle but it just makes people dread posts and what insults and brow-beating might be lurking in the background.

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In all seriousness, I'm happy to do a thread split here if enough people want that; it's just that I don't personally see much cause for it at this point.
I think we covered it pretty good and the thread can be closed. If anyone is not happy they can take a gander at this:

Abortion debate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Philosophical aspects of the abortion debate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unless people want to bash Palin somemore?
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:14 PM   #643
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:37 PM   #644
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A perfect last post for this thread.
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Old 06-24-2009, 12:30 AM   #645
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I think we covered it pretty good and the thread can be closed.

It's good to know someone's in charge.
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